Kilrathi Dreadnought
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Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
I agree with Viper that the Wing Commander III novel is certainly referring to the pandemic/bio weapons - the thread is followed up on several times in the novel.
But the idea that the Emperor being angry at Thrakhath for losing the Hakaga fleet proves that dreadnaughts don't exist (err... aren't big) is pretty silly. This is a man who killed his own son for losing a single ship - there's no possible way that his reaction would be "oh, you lost three carriers and thousands of people and you failed what should have been an easy shot at ending the war and lost credibility with the other clans... but we still have some big dreadnaughts, so everything is going to be peachy. Good try, buddy!"
But the idea that the Emperor being angry at Thrakhath for losing the Hakaga fleet proves that dreadnaughts don't exist (err... aren't big) is pretty silly. This is a man who killed his own son for losing a single ship - there's no possible way that his reaction would be "oh, you lost three carriers and thousands of people and you failed what should have been an easy shot at ending the war and lost credibility with the other clans... but we still have some big dreadnaughts, so everything is going to be peachy. Good try, buddy!"
And don't forget the Prince lost the construction yards that built the Sivar shipsBandit LOAF said:
. Talk about bad to worse, Gilkarg to Thrakhath (though I guess it runs in the family . . . Gilkarg didn't seem too able a leader either). I really need to sit down and figure up how much loss Thrakhath is responsible for (directly and sortof indirectly - you can make the argument that he's responsible for every loss after WC1:SM1 as he probably commands the military, but thats just not as fun ) such as his fleet of flagships that have been lost, the stealth production yards, etc etc. Anyway, I already figured we had moved beyond all the DN stuff and was really just going after the existance of the 'new fleet' in general at this point
. The 'angry at Thrakhath' example is pretty weak to base a DN argument on, though I was trying to refer back to the 'coffers are empty' passage (not very well I might add) in regards to the new fleet coming online, not specifically to everyones favorite 'zip code' 
.Oh and sorry Moonsword, I misread earlier . . . totally missed the 'earlier' that was in your statement. Then it reads like you thought they were used at the same time at Repleetah and Locanda. Oops.
C-ya
Yeah, I can see how that would be confusing, and I do the same thing sometimes. No problem.
As for how much Thrakath has lost during the war... let's see, he's been shot down in two top-of-the-line fighters by Blair, lost at least one flagship, been part of the ideology that led to the destruction of Kilrah, lost the Hakaga fleet, lost several battle groups on foolish attacks (Karga, et. al.), unable to bring his superior forces down on the heads of the carrier groups running through Kilrathi space at the end of WC3, the loss of Gorah Khar, etc.
Are we sure we really need the list?
As for how much Thrakath has lost during the war... let's see, he's been shot down in two top-of-the-line fighters by Blair, lost at least one flagship, been part of the ideology that led to the destruction of Kilrah, lost the Hakaga fleet, lost several battle groups on foolish attacks (Karga, et. al.), unable to bring his superior forces down on the heads of the carrier groups running through Kilrathi space at the end of WC3, the loss of Gorah Khar, etc.
Are we sure we really need the list?
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
My guess would be that 'coffers are empty' refers only to the nar Kiranka clan - which would support the idea that the Emperor goes on to talk about how he's worried the other clans will rebel against him.
(Regarding carrier production - what he says is that they need to wait four years for another fleet to replace the Hakagas. That's a reasonable claim - the Bhantkaras (which would have just entered service) would have only created a parity with the human fleet, which just premiered the Lexington-class... the Emperor's worry is that there's no way to vastly overpower the Confederation, not that there's no fleet at all. He goes on to say as much in the intro, again bringing up how the really important thing is having a fleet ready to fight the Mantu.)
(Regarding carrier production - what he says is that they need to wait four years for another fleet to replace the Hakagas. That's a reasonable claim - the Bhantkaras (which would have just entered service) would have only created a parity with the human fleet, which just premiered the Lexington-class... the Emperor's worry is that there's no way to vastly overpower the Confederation, not that there's no fleet at all. He goes on to say as much in the intro, again bringing up how the really important thing is having a fleet ready to fight the Mantu.)
hmm, it may be that I've been up for way too long, but that doesn't ring 'right' in my mind. This is all from memory, but I seem to recall in Tolwyns 'lets go join the Landreich' meeting (and I think in the beginning of the novel also) it mentions that the Kiralthi had at least a 2 to 1 fleet carrier advantage going into FA (I think the Terrans had maybe 10 or 12 with the recent losses), but alot of those Kat carriers were due for maintenace. This was before the Hakaga's were discovered and I seem to recall only 2 or 3 normal Kilrathi fleet carriers were destroyed or damaged during the BoT. So the Terrans lose 4? fully operational fleet carriers during the BoT and 8? in total, add in the 6 or so Lexingtons and watever else is ready at the time and didn't get hit in the shipyards and the Confed Fleet stands at about pre-BoT strength, while the Kats still have basically a 2 to 1 carrier advantage, plus the remaining Hakaga's from the BoT and the ones that are mere months away from completion.Bandit LOAF said:
Okay conjecture starts . . .
Then the Bhantkara's come online, completely wiping out the Kilrathi's 'coffers' (or production cylce or whatever you please), the past few years have been murder on the Kilrathi resources (as it has been the Confederation), thanks in part to Tarawa's and the other escort carriers raids and then again to the building of the Hakaga's and the new fleet. The new Fleet enters service as the First fleet, freeing up other carriers to join the Kats on the front line. Now we have a situation where the Kilrathi would consider themselves 'crippled' production wise and be severely worried about the Mantu (what they have in service is what they will have for a while), while still able to marshal the Earth killing force in Kilrah orbit and sustain the overwhelming successes they seem to be achieving on the front lines in WC3 thanks to the 2 to 1 carrier advantage.
Again, its off the top of my head and I may be way off on something, but I just can't wrap my brain around the Bhantkaras bringing 'parity' for some reason.
C-ya
Edfilho
Cry some more!
I'm yet to see my points really addressed.
If they wanted to make a 290000 ton ship, why waste so much of that mass on nothing? It may be big, but it's not very powerful.
As to the shock and awe value, well, a 2.2km is already pretty fucking scary
LOAF, I doubt the emperor (people, there is no empOrEr, it's empErOr) would let any other clan finance such big weapons. it would be too risky. And the other clans are probably prtty much drained themselves.
If they wanted to make a 290000 ton ship, why waste so much of that mass on nothing? It may be big, but it's not very powerful.
As to the shock and awe value, well, a 2.2km is already pretty fucking scary
LOAF, I doubt the emperor (people, there is no empOrEr, it's empErOr) would let any other clan finance such big weapons. it would be too risky. And the other clans are probably prtty much drained themselves.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
At the start of Fleet Action, the Confederation has sixteen fleet carriers and the Kilrathi have twenty. The Confederation will comission four more carriers (3 Concordia, 1 Jutland) in the next 240 days, while the Kilrathi will finish none. The first seven Lexington-class ships also enter service shortly after that time.
During the Battle of Terra, the Confederation loses eight carriers. The Kilrathi lose four outright and have two crippled. So the 'normal' servicable carrier count after the Battle of Terra is Confed-8, Kilrah-14... but then the production kicks in, and leaves you with Confed-19, Kilrah-14.
The 'new' fleet enters service after Jukaga's 240-day claim and closes this gap. We're brought back up to the 'parity' of the Fleet Action prologue (which is, in fact, a slight advantage for the Kilrathi).
The Bhantkaras aren't unusual because they're the 'normal' cycle of the Kilrathi fleet - just like Confed is able to bring online eight Concordias every five years, the Kilrathi are able to bring online a group of new carriers every {variable period} years.
(Coffers is, to the best of my knowledge, a specifically financial term - it doesn't refer to raw materials.)
Then you are not looking hard enough. We have absolutely no way to know what the dreadnought is for - but I offered some pretty reasonable speculation earlier that all the empty space might be because they're designed as massive armored troopships.
Not when similarly sized ships have been in service for the duration of the war.
This isn't much of an argument -- "I think the ships can't exist because I decided various facts about Kilrathi culture that aren't stated anywhere."
Ahhhh, I'm guessing thats where our numbers differ. I always counted the carriers (quarter of the fleet) that needed maintenance in the 'Confed' side of the equation. 20 down to 16, then you have the 4 Terran carriers set to come online in the 240 days the Baron projected that would bring parity. IIRC, the construction of these carriers was haulted when the Kats sued for peace. Therefore for the parity to have taken place, Confed would have had to had 12 carriers to start with to the Kilrathi 20, roughly 2 to 1 after the Kat carriers had been refurbished during the False Treaty. This meshed much better for me with the suprise Bear displays when shown the graphic in the 'Landreich defection' meeting of the carrier strength comparison. He apparently knew it was bad but not as lopsided as the graphic seemed to show. This doesn't seem the case if the Terrans had 16 carriers to the Kilrathi 20. I wouldn't rate 17 or 18 (what I assume Bear's initial estimate had to have been) to 20 as 'bad', nor would I really say 16 from an initial estimate of 17 or 18 to 20 was a 'large margin' (I think this is what he said ... Vague enough isn't he?Bandit LOAF said:
), especially with 4 fleet carriers about to come online for Confed. The jump just doesn't seem high enough to make the Kilrathi embrace the hugely unorthodox action of sueing for peace (the Kilrathi seem unaware of the Lexingtons coming online as I don't think the Baron mentions them). The jump from 16 to 20 seems like a jump that happens, as you've pointed out, every few years or so on both sides, not something to go out of your way (peace initiative) to avoid. Now, say the Terrans have been holding their own and hurting you with 12 fleet carriers (actually they've been hurting you with escort carriers, but I digress) to your 20, where you are about to lose 4 to overhauls and they are about to gain 4 at the same time? I major change in power of 8 carriers when Confed has been making positive strides is reason to cower in fear. Anyway, thats my take on the situation.
So, Kilrathi lose 6 carriers (this number doesn't include the Hakaga's?) to Confeds 8 (does this include those smashed at the moon?). Confed brings those 4 online from before the BoT (now the gap is 14 to 8, assuming the Kilrathi carriers that needed maintenance got it and the Hakaga's don't count) . . . we'll say the Lexingtons and the Bhantkaras 'cancel' each other out (per my conjecture that the Bhantkaras become most of the First Fleet and the fact that the Lexingtons are hamstringed into Earth defense), otherwise the gap becomes larger or stays roughly the same. I'm left with basically 2 to 1 again (not counting the Carriers I'm assuming the Bhantkaras replaced in the First Fleet), though this is dependent on the initial assumption that the carriers in need of maintenance were factored into the the equation to begin with to account for a few references.
True, but these Clans are putting out some serious numbers of carriers if 6 or 8 carriers are smashed in drydock (by escort carriers) but they still can deliver who knows how many BhantkarasBandit LOAF said:
. If they had been producing carriers this fast all along the War, it would have been over before it started, especially since they seem to be losing their heads over a swing of 4 carriers by your figures.Did some dictionary diving and it seems your right, though it does refer to a strongbox of somekind. I've always thought of coffers as just a stockpile of anything valuable, which the Emperor does just get finished mentioning the severe strain to their resources. But I can't see how it could relate to finances as the entire war effort was suffering thanks to the Hakagas, per FA, not just the Kiranka clan.Bandit LOAF said:
I hope this visit back to 1997 is fun for you as I wasn't part of those apparent glorious days and this is giving me a welcome reprieve from my thesis work
.C-ya
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
I think the big issue with the graphic is that the 'human' side is divided situationally (active, drydock, incomplete) while the Kilrathi side is not. We don't have a specific number for how much of the human carrier fleet is in drydock... but in 'End Run' I believe it was as large as half the fleet. Bear may be looking at a graphic claiming that eight human carriers are active versus a Kilrathi fleet of twenty. It's also worth noting that the graphic displays all classes of ships - so Bear may be reacting to the extensive nature of the Kilrathi light carrier force (Fralthi/Fralthra/etc.).
It's almost like no one had decided they existed yet
Jukaga's specific claim is that the four new carriers are "enabling them to form an entire new task force and reach a rough parity with our own carrier forces for the first time in this war." The idea that the two sides will field the same number of carriers for a time is something new which is scaring the Kilrathi - presumably because they appreciate the idea that human ships have always had the technological edge (which Tolwyn comments on as a major factor in the war's stalemate in more detail in the 'graphic' section you mentioned earlier).
The numbers for the Kilrathi fleet does not include the Hakagas; the Confederation casualties do include those destroyed on the moon.
(I've generally ignored the Hakagas, since they're not taken into account in anyones stated plans and ultimately never actually show up again for reasons unknown (fanfic goes here). Twelve Hakagas were planned, three were destroyed and two were crippled... there *should* be seven more somewhere by Wing Commander 3.)
The gap should be 14 (K) to *12* (C) if you ignore Bhantkaras and Lexingtons. Eight carriers survive the Battle of Terra, and the four carriers that come online are then added to this.
Well, that brings up a good question: how many Bhantkara's are we talking about? In my mind, we can confirm that only three exist (Sivar's Glory, Karga and the class runner himself).
Another query, relating back to the original topic: During the 'Hakaga reveal' sequence, Hunter decribes "a dozen cruiser type vessels that were bigger than the old Concordia"... is there anything that specifically contradicts the idea that *these* could be our dreadnaughts?
(They're the ships that Hunter goes on to call battleships, "drawing the term out of ancient nautical history"... apparently forgetting that there were space battleships when the war started and that at least through Wing Commander 1 everyone referred to ships of the line as battleships.)
I wouldn't be much of a Wing Commander fan if I didn't love having the same discussions over and over...
Seriously, it is fun to revisit topics like this -- but we'll have to put it on hold now, since I'm leaving for Austin in a few hours.