Jazz's loyalties.

frostytheplebe said:
Perhaps... or perhaps the Dorkirs were meant to divert the Claw's attention long enough to bring down Goddard.
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That's a possible. Is there any info on how many troops those ships could carry?

The Claw crew could've thought something like "If we take this one out now, that's less troops our ground forces have to worry about" Even if it's only one battalion on the ship, that loss could cost an entire attack. It's the old "for want of a nail a shoe was lost" scenario, one small loss causes an entire attack to fail
 
Kyle Maverick said:
That's a possible. Is there any info on how many troops those ships could carry?

The Claw crew could've thought something like "If we take this one out now, that's less troops our ground forces have to worry about" Even if it's only one battalion on the ship, that loss could cost an entire attack. It's the old "for want of a nail a shoe was lost" scenario, one small loss causes an entire attack to fail
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I dont think there is a specific number... but its not the first time the Kilrathi left Dorkirs behind to divert Confed ships. :D
 
One thing I've wondered about Jazz:

Did he (and the rest of the Mandarins) join up with the Kilrathi because they believed in the Empire's cause, or did they try to get into the Empire's good graces in order to bring it down from within (Jazz could feasibly justify this due to the death of his brother on Goddard). That is to say, Jazz may have sworn revenge on both the Tiger's Claw & crew AND the Kilrathi.

I've read both perspectives in this forum so now I'm curious.
 
One thing I've wondered about Jazz:

Did he (and the rest of the Mandarins) join up with the Kilrathi because they believed in the Empire's cause, or did they try to get into the Empire's good graces in order to bring it down from within (Jazz could feasibly justify this due to the death of his brother on Goddard). That is to say, Jazz may have sworn revenge on both the Tiger's Claw & crew AND the Kilrathi.

I've read both perspectives in this forum so now I'm curious.
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That's a good question! I think the answer will be pretty different for Jazz versus the average Mandarin (or the organization itself).

With regards to the Society of Mandarins as an organization, the idea is that they are patriots in their own way. They believe that the war can't be won and so the best thing humans can do to preserve their culture is to allow the Kilrathi to win with as little damage as possible and then change the Empire from within. So their formal belief is that they should do nothing to hinder a Kilrathi victory because doing so will simply inflict harm to humanity in the long run.

But from that arguably noble thought (think of them as the 27th century equivalent of conscientious objectors). The Kilrathi recognized the movement as a source for ideologically-motived spies and saboteurs and took advantage, promising high ranking positions in the post-war Empire for more direct support. And over time, it became more reactionary: instead of not opposing the Kilrathi, they moved towards actively supporting them. Special Operations 2 mentions this arc: "their tactics have changed from misguided pacifism to passive treason and now aggressive collaboration." (Worth noting - it's not until "recent months" in SO2 that the organization itself is proven to be working with the Kilrathi… so it's not necessarily a totally underground thing to be a Mandarin.)

In the case of Jazz, though, I don't think we get a great read on whether or not he's an ideological Mandarin. To me, the fact that his overarching desire is revenge on the Tiger's Claw crew suggests he's not. The Mandarins are a useful tool for him to reach that end, but just the fact that murdering people is his objective kind of contradicts the idea that he's motivated to save human lives. On the other hand, in Special Operations 2 he calls himself a "sworn Mandarin" and his court performance certainly suggests he at least believes the Kilrathi will win the war (though he may simply have no choice to believe it at that point, as the other outcome guarantees his execution). Later, he mentions that bringing Thrakhath the Morningstar will guarantee his future position in the Empire, so at that point it's for personal gain (though again he really has no other choice).

It's interesting to think about what his backstory must have been. He would've found out about his brother's death at the end of 2654 which pushed him to explore the anti-war movement and connect with the Society of Mandarins… which had been infiltrated by the Kilrathi which pushed him to direct collaboration within a year. And that was just perfect because Lord Thrakhath had a parallel need for revenge – Bluehair was responsible for his father's execution and to consolidate his new power he needed to respond to that stain on his honor.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
On the other hand, in Special Operations 2 he calls himself a "sworn Mandarin" and his court performance certainly suggests he at least believes the Kilrathi will win the war (though he may simply have no choice to believe it at that point, as the other outcome guarantees his execution). Later, he mentions that bringing Thrakhath the Morningstar will guarantee his future position in the Empire, so at that point it's for personal gain (though again he really has no other choice).
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I think it's worth posting the entire conversation where Jazz calls himself a "sworn Mandarin". It's in Canewdon 3-E, which is a losing path mission that is easy to miss. Sorry about the number of frames where the characters are blinking.

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I think this reveals quite a bit about Jazz, Minx, the Mandarins and their hierarchy.

What you miss seeing this in still screenshots is the romantic music playing behind it. If you want to experience it yourself, the mission chear system calls it Series 5 mission c. (Secret Operations 2 has no full losing series, just individual losing missions. They're all stored in Series 5. Both Secret Operations 1 and Secret Operations 2 have some quite strange losing missions and story events. Play them all!)

I agree that Jazz's character development isn't logical, when he joins the side that killed his cousin. But it's still realistic! If you look at the history of real-world traitors and assassins, it's pretty common to find them motivated more by bizarre personal spite than any coherent moral code.

Is Minx's last line enough to get Casablanca into a Movie Night, even if the wording is slightly different? Does it have any other Wing Commander connections?
 
Good call, seeing the conversation is a big help.

One thing I noticed while looking up Mandarin references is that they're totally absent in some strange places. There's no mention of the group in the Wing Commander I & II Ultimate Strategy Guide or Freedom Flight. The former made me realize that if you don't follow up WC2 with Special Operations 2 then whether or not Jazz is a Mandarin is pretty opaque. He only acknowledges it in the losing version of his capture, where he promises he'll give up the names of Mandarin leaders. But if you don't see that his story comes off more as 'we were hunting for a Mandarin but found a crazy guy' instead. So when Mike Harrison went to adapt that, he just left the Mandarins out.

(And I think that should qualify Casablanca, I'll add it to the pool for future votes!)
 
“And I nearly did. Spirit was so easy...
...and I only had four to go...you, Angel, Paladdin and Maniac...”

But what about Hawk? Why wasn’t Hawk on Jazz’s hit list? (I mean, is there an in Universe explanation for this? Obviously, Hawk’s character hadn’t been invented when WC2 was released).
 
I think he must be gunning for everyone who was on the ship when Goddard was destroyed; Hawk would've been in OCS.

(But he's still missing some people. Hunter, for instance!)
 
While we're on the subject you should add Zulu to the movie list:

"Hey, leader, why us?" someone called sarcastically.
Hawkins chuckled sadly.
"Because we're here, lads, because we're here."
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