Border Worlds Fighters
- Thread starter Dragon1
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Haesslich
Spaceman
Quarto said:Ahh, bullshit. You're really gonna try to persuade us that the Vindicator is chunkier than the Longbow or the Thunderbolt?
For the most part, the Border Worlds' fighters seem less finished and refined compared to the Confed craft: the Vindicator's got all that junk stuck onto it (torp hardpoints, missile hardpoints, special Leech Guns and Stormfires), and the other two look almost primitive compared to the Arrow, Bearcat, and Excalibur. The T-Bolt's a bit chunky, sure, but most of the Confed fighters seem to have been designed for front-line combat, to judge by their equipment and weapons loadouts.
If anything, they're more reminiscent of the whole 'Ferrett stuck onto a corvette engine' that we read about in End Run than even the militia or pirate fighters we see in Privateer.
Nob Akimoto
Rear Admiral
Avenger might actually be the same bomber design Tolwyn mentions in Fleet Action that Landriech is using that the UBW might have acquired from them on loan. (Converted shuttle.) The name sort of seems more in line with a Confed fighter, though. Particularly in relation to "Hellcat" and "Bearcat."(All you need is a few Helldivers, Dauntless and Corsairs to round out the WW2 theme)
Bearcat's probably a "conventional" replacement to the Hellcat as the name suggests, though again it's too easy to make a close connection between the F6F/F8F comparison. It seems a lighter, more agile frame, while supposedly retaining the former's forgiving characteristics. In comparison with the Excal's lighter armor and somewhat special nature in development, that itself might make her more of an Ensign Eliminator.
Bearcat's probably a "conventional" replacement to the Hellcat as the name suggests, though again it's too easy to make a close connection between the F6F/F8F comparison. It seems a lighter, more agile frame, while supposedly retaining the former's forgiving characteristics. In comparison with the Excal's lighter armor and somewhat special nature in development, that itself might make her more of an Ensign Eliminator.
Haesslich said:For the most part, the Border Worlds' fighters seem less finished and refined compared to the Confed craft: the Vindicator's got all that junk stuck onto it (torp hardpoints, missile hardpoints, special Leech Guns and Stormfires), and the other two look almost primitive compared to the Arrow, Bearcat, and Excalibur. The T-Bolt's a bit chunky, sure, but most of the Confed fighters seem to have been designed for front-line combat, to judge by their equipment and weapons loadouts.
If anything, they're more reminiscent of the whole 'Ferrett stuck onto a corvette engine' that we read about in End Run than even the militia or pirate fighters we see in Privateer.
Hey guys. Been a long time since I posted here, but this thread looked so interesting that I just couldn't resist. Needless to say, I'm on Quarto's side of the debate.
I don't agree that the Border Worlds fighters are like the converted Ferret in End Run. If I recall correctly, the comment made about that design was that pilot deserved a medal just for flying one. In other words, it was a ship with which you achieved death or glory, and probably both. The Border Worlds fighters seem able to fight on an equal basis with baseline Confed fighters like the Arrow, Hellcat and Thunderbolt, and to perform multiple mission roles. That suggests a lot of engineering and planning went into them. While the *designs* might have begun life as trainers and shuttles, there was probably a lot of redesign work that made them into combat craft. I don't think you could get that sort of capability with a scratch conversion.
As for appearance, to my eyes the Dragon looks to be a clunkier design than the Excalibur, which I find to be much more sleek and gracefull. Given that aerodynamics play such a small part in the performance of WC craft (even atmospheric capaqble ones, due to shields), it would be hard to say how refined a craft is from its looks.
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Best, Raptor
Haesslich
Spaceman
Quarto said:
IIRC, that 'Interceptor' comment is from the WC Aces fanfiction and setting, like the whole 'finicky targeting system' excuse for why we don't see more Bearcats after WC4 while fighters like the Excalibur and T-bolt remain. This may also derive from the real-world Grumman F8F Bearcat, which was a carrier-based fighter-interceptor.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
My take has always been that the majority of the Border Worlds fighter force is surplus and defected Confederation fighters: Rapier IIs, Broadswords, etc... and the WCIV fighters are the focus of the game because they're 'special'.
There's no history to the Vindicator or the Banshee, though I've always liked the idea that the Banshee is the "three man patrol fighter" referred to in the WCIV novel. The Avenger does show up as a shuttle in Wing Commander Academy - which makes it, appropriately, the same vintage as the Confed fighters (Hellcat and Longbow). (And I would agree with those who point out that these aren't *new* conversions - local militias have probably been arming shuttles and patrol fighters for many years).
Almost anything you've ever heard about the Bearcat is entirely fanfic based. All we have are the specifications in the WCIV guide (heavy fighter!) and its actual appearance in WCIV. It never gets so much as a paragraph of description anywhere.
There's no history to the Vindicator or the Banshee, though I've always liked the idea that the Banshee is the "three man patrol fighter" referred to in the WCIV novel. The Avenger does show up as a shuttle in Wing Commander Academy - which makes it, appropriately, the same vintage as the Confed fighters (Hellcat and Longbow). (And I would agree with those who point out that these aren't *new* conversions - local militias have probably been arming shuttles and patrol fighters for many years).
Almost anything you've ever heard about the Bearcat is entirely fanfic based. All we have are the specifications in the WCIV guide (heavy fighter!) and its actual appearance in WCIV. It never gets so much as a paragraph of description anywhere.
I think it resonable that the UBW has the unique fighters it does. Id like to sugest a historical parallel.
Three of the famous military aircraft the Army Air Corps and Navy deployed during WWII were actually used first by foreign powers, or purchased by foreign powers before being used by the AAC or USN.
The original curtis hawk family were talking curtis designated Hawk 75s, or what the AAF would eventually call the P-36 aircraft were delivered to the Netherlands and France, before US production lines opened. The Mustang (P-51) was actually developed by North American Aviation not at the behest of the US goverment, but by the british! yes the british contracted with a US manufactuer to provide combat aircraft without any input from the US government. However the US goverment noticed North Americans design and funded it, even though the british were not quite enamored with the first versions, eventually they used numbers of Mustangs.
Lastly the little Wildcat actualy LOST its development competition to the Brewster Buffalo, However the British purchased a number of aircraft from Grummond (and named it the Martlet) and fielded them, this purchase allowed Grummond to keep the production lines open and during the events of 1940/1941, the Navy realized by watching combat reports out of europe along with its on discoveries about the Buffalo, they quickly changed their decision and also purchased the wildcat.
Now that the history lesson is over, this is how I believe that the UBW aquired its fighters, it either contracted on its own with space craft manufacterers, or picked up designs that confed for various reasons rejected.
The borderworlds hold over 40 systems, with an unknown population and resource base, so we dont know what their economic capabilities are, but I view it t to be fairly realistic for them to have the ability to purchase fighters from manufacturers on their own and not just rely on confed hand me downs.
Three of the famous military aircraft the Army Air Corps and Navy deployed during WWII were actually used first by foreign powers, or purchased by foreign powers before being used by the AAC or USN.
The original curtis hawk family were talking curtis designated Hawk 75s, or what the AAF would eventually call the P-36 aircraft were delivered to the Netherlands and France, before US production lines opened. The Mustang (P-51) was actually developed by North American Aviation not at the behest of the US goverment, but by the british! yes the british contracted with a US manufactuer to provide combat aircraft without any input from the US government. However the US goverment noticed North Americans design and funded it, even though the british were not quite enamored with the first versions, eventually they used numbers of Mustangs.
Lastly the little Wildcat actualy LOST its development competition to the Brewster Buffalo, However the British purchased a number of aircraft from Grummond (and named it the Martlet) and fielded them, this purchase allowed Grummond to keep the production lines open and during the events of 1940/1941, the Navy realized by watching combat reports out of europe along with its on discoveries about the Buffalo, they quickly changed their decision and also purchased the wildcat.
Now that the history lesson is over, this is how I believe that the UBW aquired its fighters, it either contracted on its own with space craft manufacterers, or picked up designs that confed for various reasons rejected.
The borderworlds hold over 40 systems, with an unknown population and resource base, so we dont know what their economic capabilities are, but I view it t to be fairly realistic for them to have the ability to purchase fighters from manufacturers on their own and not just rely on confed hand me downs.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
I'm sure they can buy their own fighters - but they can't contract new designs that would be in service by Wing Commander IV. The three WCIV fighters existend for some reason beforehand.
Bandit LOAF said:
Yeah, thats not the point of contention I think, Actually I wouldnt be suprised if they came online during during the battle of earth time frame, both the borderworlds and the confed were pretty tapped out during the battle of earth, so confed franticly opened up the WC III craft production, and the borderworlds also needing new craft probably picked up designs that confed didnt.
RogueBanshee
Rear Admiral
I know some South American countries used to and probably still arm training craft to serve as light fighters so I have no probelm with the idea that the Banshee was a armed training craft. The Avenger looks like a shuttle so I have no problem with that idea.
As for the Vindicator I think it was either converted from a civilan ship or built as a fighter. If it was built as a fighter I think it may have been designed as a multi-purpose fighter for system defense forces that couldn't afford or needed something faster then a heavy fighter. I used to think they were modified atmospheric craft but i couldn't think of a reason for a atmospheric fighter to have torpedoes. Of course those might have been part of the modifications.
I think the three man patrol craft were converted into heavy fighters. I don't think they were Bansees but I think they were the ancestors of the Avengers.
As for the Vindicator I think it was either converted from a civilan ship or built as a fighter. If it was built as a fighter I think it may have been designed as a multi-purpose fighter for system defense forces that couldn't afford or needed something faster then a heavy fighter. I used to think they were modified atmospheric craft but i couldn't think of a reason for a atmospheric fighter to have torpedoes. Of course those might have been part of the modifications.
I think the three man patrol craft were converted into heavy fighters. I don't think they were Bansees but I think they were the ancestors of the Avengers.