Border Worlds - Confed (Again!)
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or SO) was the bigger one? 
Mekt-Hakkikt
Mpanty's bane
I am pretty sure that the SOPS attacks was the real invasion. Not only from the humbers encountered in the game itself but I think in the fiction this theory is also encouraged.
Eder
Mr. Standoff
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: BorderWorlds-Confed(AGAIN!)
Yes, yes, it certainly was a war, but I just think that it didn't have much of a front line, because the conflict was (thankfully
) too damn short, and in too few systems... I mean, apart from a few thousand civilians aboard some cruise liners, those systems didn't suffer any losses comparable to the ones in the front line systems of the Kilrathi war. <G>
--Eder
Originally posted by Raptor
Personally, I think any conflict that has each side's super carriers being blown up constitutes a war, even if it's only a small or undeclared one.
Yes, yes, it certainly was a war, but I just think that it didn't have much of a front line, because the conflict was (thankfully
) too damn short, and in too few systems... I mean, apart from a few thousand civilians aboard some cruise liners, those systems didn't suffer any losses comparable to the ones in the front line systems of the Kilrathi war. <G>--Eder
Mekt-Hakkikt
Mpanty's bane
Originally posted by Supdon3
From the notes I took
That may well be. Still I think the difference in numbers of capships was not very large, was it? The number of fighters on the other hand was.
My personal opinion is that neither one of the attacks was a 'serious' invasion. I think there are more capships in Prophecy, but this can be explained by pointing out that the Midway is doing most of the fighting on her own (with occasional support). The Cerberus, on the other hand, is deep within Confed space, and while she appears to be involved in the brunt of the fighting, there are other elements out there that are dealing with the Nephilim as well.
There are some comments in the fiction that seem to indicate that there are indications of alien incursions in other sectors, as well. I believe what we are looking at in each case is a recon in force by the Nephilim (mind you, I don't think Confed typically uses entire fleets to perform a recon in force) to test the waters and see exactly what kind of opposition Confed can provide.
Supdon - I believe both wormholes could be destroyed. The difference is that in the case of the Proxima wormhole, Confed had the resources on hand to perform a proper capture operation to gain control of the Proxima side of the wormhole.
And something for the overly ambitious fan project person...
Create a Privateer Total Conversion that simulates Nephilim raiding in the Gemini sector, complete with bit-mapped Nephilim ships to replace the Kilrathi and/or Retro ships.
There are some comments in the fiction that seem to indicate that there are indications of alien incursions in other sectors, as well. I believe what we are looking at in each case is a recon in force by the Nephilim (mind you, I don't think Confed typically uses entire fleets to perform a recon in force) to test the waters and see exactly what kind of opposition Confed can provide.
Supdon - I believe both wormholes could be destroyed. The difference is that in the case of the Proxima wormhole, Confed had the resources on hand to perform a proper capture operation to gain control of the Proxima side of the wormhole.
And something for the overly ambitious fan project person...
Create a Privateer Total Conversion that simulates Nephilim raiding in the Gemini sector, complete with bit-mapped Nephilim ships to replace the Kilrathi and/or Retro ships.
I'm going to say that I doubt it was a recon force as well. That's not to say it isn't a LIGHT force, but a recon one, impossible. (IMHO)
Although, I will give that, it is a different race that we know nothing about-and since they're bugs, and bugs tend to have MASSIVE numbers, it may be that it is a recon force. (But come on, doesn't that seem unlikely? )
Although, I will give that, it is a different race that we know nothing about-and since they're bugs, and bugs tend to have MASSIVE numbers, it may be that it is a recon force. (But come on, doesn't that seem unlikely?
)The Recon in Force idea is disturbing due to the implications, but I still think its the most likely possibility. In both cases, the Nephilim basically 'threw away' the fleets that were involved. Neither fleet was large enough to take on Confed without support, and yet that appears to be exactly what happened.
There are a few different possibilities as to what might be going on at Kilrah. A few of the more likely ones are listed here.
1.) What got sent through the Kilrah wormhole was a sizable portion of the Nephilim fleet.
2.) The Nephilim sent their initial survey fleet through, found the Kilrathi and their shattered war machine, and sent word back to their home systems that a larger fleet would not be needed.
3.) The Nephilim fleet that appeared in Kilrah was a survey fleet designed to scout the area out while simultaneously causing problems for any enemies in the area (i.e. a Recon in Force).
4.) The fleet was a distraction to cover something else.
My thoughts on each idea are as follows.
1.) This idea would be nice from Confed's viewpoint, but doesn't seem to fit with the facts. If the initial Nephilim fleet was such a large portion of the Nephilim's fleet strength, then how could they afford to almost instantly commit another large chunk of it in Proxima? And there are also indications that the Nephilim might be in other systems as well.
2.) This idea has merits. Under this idea, the Nephilim invade Kilrathi space, and meet very disorganized resistance. They swiftly gain space control of a number of systems, and decide that there is nothing capable of opposing them in the region. By the time the Midway disabuses them of that notion, it is too late, and only last minute piece meal reinforcements make their way through the wormhole before it is destroyed. The problem, as I see it, is that if that were the case, then the Proxima invasion would have been much more powerful than the Kilrah invasion. The Nephilim knew they were up against a more powerful opponent, and yet the Proxima fleet appears roughly the same size as the Kilrah fleet.
3.) This is the idea I prefer, as scary as it is for Confed. Basically, the Kilrah survey battle group came through and got the lay of the land. They then proceeded to crush the Kilrathi resistance, and figured out where these human interlopers came from. The Midway then came and rolled them back. Fortunately (from the Nephilim POV), a system with a star suitable for powering a wormhole was discovered, and they launched a new expedition into Proxima space. The Proxima survey/ RIF was launched with the idea of figuring out the more minute details of the local systems that would not have been available from captured databases. The assault was eventually crushed, but it gave the Nephilim a great deal of additional information on their new opponents and caused numerous headaches for Confed. Not only that, but even though the Proxima wormhole has been captured by Confed, there are still Nephilim forces nosing around in two or three other sectors of known space.
The only real objection that I've seen to this is that giving the Nephilim that powerful of a space navy would put Confed in serious trouble
4.) A distraction theory is plausible, as well. The problem is that there are no clues at all as to why the Nephilim would have needed a distraction in the first place. What could be more important than a wormhole next door to Earth?
Comments, criticisms, and other odds and ends are, as always, welcome.
There are a few different possibilities as to what might be going on at Kilrah. A few of the more likely ones are listed here.
1.) What got sent through the Kilrah wormhole was a sizable portion of the Nephilim fleet.
2.) The Nephilim sent their initial survey fleet through, found the Kilrathi and their shattered war machine, and sent word back to their home systems that a larger fleet would not be needed.
3.) The Nephilim fleet that appeared in Kilrah was a survey fleet designed to scout the area out while simultaneously causing problems for any enemies in the area (i.e. a Recon in Force).
4.) The fleet was a distraction to cover something else.
My thoughts on each idea are as follows.
1.) This idea would be nice from Confed's viewpoint, but doesn't seem to fit with the facts. If the initial Nephilim fleet was such a large portion of the Nephilim's fleet strength, then how could they afford to almost instantly commit another large chunk of it in Proxima? And there are also indications that the Nephilim might be in other systems as well.
2.) This idea has merits. Under this idea, the Nephilim invade Kilrathi space, and meet very disorganized resistance. They swiftly gain space control of a number of systems, and decide that there is nothing capable of opposing them in the region. By the time the Midway disabuses them of that notion, it is too late, and only last minute piece meal reinforcements make their way through the wormhole before it is destroyed. The problem, as I see it, is that if that were the case, then the Proxima invasion would have been much more powerful than the Kilrah invasion. The Nephilim knew they were up against a more powerful opponent, and yet the Proxima fleet appears roughly the same size as the Kilrah fleet.
3.) This is the idea I prefer, as scary as it is for Confed. Basically, the Kilrah survey battle group came through and got the lay of the land. They then proceeded to crush the Kilrathi resistance, and figured out where these human interlopers came from. The Midway then came and rolled them back. Fortunately (from the Nephilim POV), a system with a star suitable for powering a wormhole was discovered, and they launched a new expedition into Proxima space. The Proxima survey/ RIF was launched with the idea of figuring out the more minute details of the local systems that would not have been available from captured databases. The assault was eventually crushed, but it gave the Nephilim a great deal of additional information on their new opponents and caused numerous headaches for Confed. Not only that, but even though the Proxima wormhole has been captured by Confed, there are still Nephilim forces nosing around in two or three other sectors of known space.
The only real objection that I've seen to this is that giving the Nephilim that powerful of a space navy would put Confed in serious trouble
4.) A distraction theory is plausible, as well. The problem is that there are no clues at all as to why the Nephilim would have needed a distraction in the first place. What could be more important than a wormhole next door to Earth?
Comments, criticisms, and other odds and ends are, as always, welcome.
I think that post covers the possibilities pretty well, Junior. The one thing I might add (as if the RIF idea wasn't disturbing enought) is that *all* Nephilim might be considered an expendible element of the Aligned Peoples. They're nothing more than cannon fodder, and the rest of the Aligned Peoples have something far more powerfull to hit us with. While that might be far fetched, the way the Nephilim throw themselves away, and the mismatch between the intelligence needed to create the tech they have and the intelligence they show in battle suggests there might be something more powerfull or intelligent behind them.
Best, Raptor
Best, Raptor
I could really see the third option being possible, since Recon in Force would make sense of the attacks on the Kilrathi, etc.
It would certainly be possible that these "Aligned People" would use them as fodder, due to the fact that (going off this insect thing) they probably would be able to produce enough people to send off a die. (While I don't know about the wasted resources, this is possible.) However, due to the fact that I'm unaware of how this possible government system is set up, I can't really say how it works.
Yet, assuming they're not just using the bugs as fodder from their mass reproduction, they may just be using them as a basic miltary force, who, once encountering a major military force, are simply trying to hold ground while the rest of the fleet gets there. (But, as we all know from the Kilrathi War, assembling a fleet is not a quick job when your not expecting the need for one.)
It would certainly be possible that these "Aligned People" would use them as fodder, due to the fact that (going off this insect thing) they probably would be able to produce enough people to send off a die. (While I don't know about the wasted resources, this is possible.) However, due to the fact that I'm unaware of how this possible government system is set up, I can't really say how it works.
Yet, assuming they're not just using the bugs as fodder from their mass reproduction, they may just be using them as a basic miltary force, who, once encountering a major military force, are simply trying to hold ground while the rest of the fleet gets there. (But, as we all know from the Kilrathi War, assembling a fleet is not a quick job when your not expecting the need for one.)
I'm thinkin...
Spaceman
I also find the third option plausible. The bugs sent in their RIF fleet, they find the shattered remains of Kilrah and in their broadening survey of the region run into Confed. With the second wormhole in Proxima this idea begins to make even more sense.
I would say though that they weren't that ineffective. They did destroy a number of Confed capships and transports, namely the Vesuvius. But it almost does seem as if the Nephilim were sent in as cannon fodder. They always seem to have the advantage in sheer numbers but when it comes to fighting they just don't have what it takes to carry on a sustained battle. Even if they are an advanced force just trying to hold their own til the "Aligned Peoples" send in reinforcements, they are a pretty pitiful excuse for an advance force.
As to their form of possible government system they could be part of something like a hive mind. What one bug senses gets relayed back to a master and is stored for later analysis. That could possibly be the reason for their apparent ineffectivness. The master can't control thousands of bugs and have them fight on a scale equivelent to that of confed pilots. But this also serves as a learning tool for the master. It can analyze tactics and manuevers that Confed makes when faced with certain situations and from the analysis make decisions that at a later time could put Confed at a disadvantage.
But I don't have all the answers, just my opinions.
I would say though that they weren't that ineffective. They did destroy a number of Confed capships and transports, namely the Vesuvius. But it almost does seem as if the Nephilim were sent in as cannon fodder. They always seem to have the advantage in sheer numbers but when it comes to fighting they just don't have what it takes to carry on a sustained battle. Even if they are an advanced force just trying to hold their own til the "Aligned Peoples" send in reinforcements, they are a pretty pitiful excuse for an advance force.
As to their form of possible government system they could be part of something like a hive mind. What one bug senses gets relayed back to a master and is stored for later analysis. That could possibly be the reason for their apparent ineffectivness. The master can't control thousands of bugs and have them fight on a scale equivelent to that of confed pilots. But this also serves as a learning tool for the master. It can analyze tactics and manuevers that Confed makes when faced with certain situations and from the analysis make decisions that at a later time could put Confed at a disadvantage.
But I don't have all the answers, just my opinions.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
It's the Mt. St. Helens.
I don't think that the Nephilim are deliberately meant to be cannon fodder. Assuming that the 'Aligned Peoples' can only open wormholes where local conditions are favorable, why would they entrust the defence of the wormhole to cannon fodder?
Another reason why I don't believe that the bugs have anything worse is that we've already seen their worst. Now unless we've mistakenly labelled the Tiamat a dreadnought, when its really just a cruiser, how much more can they have?
I know its fun to think the bugs and their allies/masters have really advanced tech to kick our butts with, but imagine if this was put into practice? There'd be no plausible way for Confed to win, which would add up to a game that's not that fun to play
Another reason why I don't believe that the bugs have anything worse is that we've already seen their worst. Now unless we've mistakenly labelled the Tiamat a dreadnought, when its really just a cruiser, how much more can they have?
I know its fun to think the bugs and their allies/masters have really advanced tech to kick our butts with, but imagine if this was put into practice? There'd be no plausible way for Confed to win, which would add up to a game that's not that fun to play
Actually, I'd disagree that there was no way to win (Although I will agree, if the Tiamat is what we think it is, it probably is part of their best equipment), as the same could have been said for the Kilrathi War. After all, all the analysis that Confed ran showed that, if the war stayed pretty much the same, Confed would lose. It's only humanity's desire to persevere, and do absolutely anything to win (See the thread that's kinda about Kilrah's Destruction=Confed Right?) that made them win, and I'm sure the Nephilim are suddenly going to remove that power from mankind.