Wrath of Khan

[frostytheplebe]

Surely everyone in here has seen this movie at one time or another. Personally i think its the best one of all time.

One thing I'm trying to figure out is... I've seen starships in the shows, movies, and games take torpedo hits with shields down, though I know the games aren't "canon," you see it quite often there too.

In all of those, I have never seen a torpedo do THAT much damage... even in Star Trek six when the torpedo smashed clear through the saucer. Or in Star Trek 3 when the Klingon torpedo hit aft of the bridge. Niether time did it cause a huge explosion on the bridge and fires flooding the entire area.

So with that in mind, I was curious as to where the initial torpedo from the Reliant in WOK hit. In figure one I've provided below, I always was lead to believe that this was in fact the place where the torpedo hit. But then I read on Startrek.com about the defense field.

During that Era, most of the important systems on the saucer (Bridge, Pulse phaser emitters, main sensor, etc.) were protected by a secondary shield that was activated during yellow alert, as evident from the line right before the first attack:

Kirk: This is damn peculiar... yellow alert!
Savik: Energize defense field...

The defense field according to the diagram between the helm and navigation, and on the ST website indicates that the defense field protects this area on Figure 2.... if that were the case, how could a single torpedo do THAT MUCH damage...

THoughts?

 

[mustanger]

Well, here is my uninformed response The phaser strike came first, and probably knocked out what little defense was activated from the Yellow alert. That allowed the torpedo to do a massive amount of damage.

If you recall from Star Trek Six, the shields were collapsing at the time the torpedo tore through the saucer, however it is not said that they were entirely down. I believe it is safe to assume that another hit could have spelt destruction of the Enterprise at that point.

 

[frostytheplebe]

Well, here is my uninformed response The phaser strike came first, and probably knocked out what little defense was activated from the Yellow alert. That allowed the torpedo to do a massive amount of damage.

If you recall from Star Trek Six, the shields were collapsing at the time the torpedo tore through the saucer, however it is not said that they were entirely down. I believe it is safe to assume that another hit could have spelt destruction of the Enterprise at that point.

possibly... but what about the torpedo hits in star trek 3 without shields and the one in 5? both hit the saucer, one right behind the bridge... I do agree the reliants pulse phaser probably knocked out the power to keep the defense field up, but i still dont see a torpedo doing that kind of damage.

 

[Ijuin]

Torpedoes are powered by a substance even more powerful than antimatter--Narrativium!

 

[Gaal Dornick]

Federation torpedoes are more powerful then Klingon?

I always believed (and still do to this day), that the Reliant's torp slammed into the engineering section on the starboard side as there is a load of damage there. Also, remember the Enterprise is still shaking during the scenes wherethe damage reports are coming in on the bridge and when all hell is breaking loose in engineering. The implication there could be that Reliant was damaging all sorts stuff with its phasers. Finally, remember what direction the Reliant was traveling when it launched that torpedo.

 

[frostytheplebe]

Federation torpedoes are more powerful then Klingon?

I always believed (and still do to this day), that the Reliant's torp slammed into the engineering section on the starboard side as there is a load of damage there. Also, remember the Enterprise is still shaking during the scenes wherethe damage reports are coming in on the bridge and when all hell is breaking loose in engineering. The implication there could be that Reliant was damaging all sorts stuff with its phasers. Finally, remember what direction the Reliant was traveling when it launched that torpedo.

I disagree... first, the klingons excel at nothing but weapons and power.

second, watch the battle scene again, the engineering section, and torpedo module, were blasted by multiple pulse phaser hits, not the torpedo.

Third... most of the explosions occured during the phasers slicing through the hull. The few that occured afterwards i believe were explosions that happened perhaps when something leaked or was damaged as a result of the damage.

Finally, the Reliant had "swung around" and was in front of the Enterprise. The torpedo looked like it hit close to the forward sensors array on the lower part of the saucer.

 

[Houkiboshi]

The few that occured afterwards i believe were explosions that happened perhaps when something leaked or was damaged as a result of the damage.

Plasma?

 

[Peterson]

Well, photon torpedoes can have variable yield, which calls into the question the validity of comparing torpedo strikes from other films. It's possible that Khan, having planned exactly how he was going to attack the Enterprise, had adapted the torpedo, sacrificing range (which he knew he wouldn't need) for more power.

The problem with Star Trek (and a lot of Sci-fi) is that creators want to show weapons impacting with the hull of the ship and then explosions etc on the bridge of the ship. Why? Because it looks exciting.

Trouble is, it's totally unrealistic. In modern terms, the idea that a shell or missile hitting an aircraft carrier could cause a power surge that makes consoles explode on the bridge of the ship would simply not be acceptable. I fail to see why Starfleet, who are supposedly completely anal in their attention to safety, with every ship's system requiring two redundant backups, would allow this to occur at all, let alone so frequently.

 

[Delance]

Trouble is, it's totally unrealistic.

I agree, it's done for dramatic effect. Just like sound in space, it's something we simply accept.

In modern terms, the idea that a shell or missile hitting an aircraft carrier could cause a power surge that makes consoles explode on the bridge of the ship would simply not be acceptable.

As opposed to the ancient aicraft carriers of the macedonian navy? That's arguably an invalid analogy, since modern warfare don't use energy-based weapons or whatever they use in Star Trek.

I fail to see why Starfleet, who are supposedly completely anal in their attention to safety, with every ship's system requiring two redundant backups, would allow this to occur at all, let alone so frequently.

Maybe there's no way to prevent it because of some techobabble. And it looks cool, anyway. Khan crawling on the destroyed bridge to make one last attack is much more dramatic than some abstract computer display showing damage.

Just consider Wing Commander I: the damage was much more real because things started exploding on the cockpit than the VDU display turning red.

 

[Edfilho]

KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, carry on.

 

[Capn Johnny]

Well.. photorps have always been terribly inconsistent between the various movies and tv shows.. they seem to range in power from "Dude, stop shooting those at me! You're gonna scratch my shields!" to "Yield to my demands or I will obliterate your entire city!!"

Another thing that bugs me is that (according to ToS "cannon") the Federation developed photorp technology and the Klingons "aquired" it sometime before ST:TMP. Which is how it will always be in my heart.. and this is also one of the (many) reasons "Enterprise" made me soooo angry.

Wow. Micro rant. Sorry.

-J

 

[Peterson]

I agree, it's done for dramatic effect. Just like sound in space, it's something we simply accept.

Yeah, although the cause of the sound is there - it just doesn't travel anywhere as there's nothing to conduct it. As the viewer, you have a perspective that isn't bound by the laws of physics, so it's okay for you to hear it.

It's only unrealistic if characters in the movie/TV show hear it (uhh, like in the Wing Commander movie, ahem).

Think of it this way, no one thinks it unrealistic when a camera shot appears to pass through a wall (or something equally impossible), but you would if a character did.

As opposed to the ancient aicraft carriers of the macedonian navy? That's arguably an invalid analogy, since modern warfare don't use energy-based weapons or whatever they use in Star Trek.

If the energy from a photon torpedo is being directly conducted from one part of the ship all the way up to a bridge console, then yes. But I don't believe that's the case.

Maybe there's no way to prevent it because of some techobabble. And it looks cool, anyway. Khan crawling on the destroyed bridge to make one last attack is much more dramatic than some abstract computer display showing damage.

Oh, I completely agree there.

"For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee."

Just consider Wing Commander I: the damage was much more real because things started exploding on the cockpit than the VDU display turning red.

It got most real for me on a Rapier when I'm facing four Grathas and fire Full Guns and one piddly laser bolt goes off...

KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, carry on.

http://www.khaaan.com

 

[privfan]

the torpedoes in ST3 do some really weird stuff that I don't think we ever saw them do in any trek before or after
they don't explode just cause arcs of electricity all over the exterior of the ship

 

[AD]

It's only unrealistic if characters in the movie/TV show hear it (uhh, like in the Wing Commander movie, ahem).

Yes there are flaws in the movie, but this is one tired excuse that just doesn't fit. Yes it was made to look like a sub movie but they aren't hearing the actual kilrathi ship. Paladin hushes them because their excitement was premature. The pings are the sound of their own Sonar-like sensor array tracking the kilrathi ship that was turning to pass by again and bombard them.

I really don't see that scene as a legitimate critisism of anything in the movie.

Star Trek, Star Wars all have sound in space.. About one of the only ones that doesn't is 2001. To bash the WC movie on it seems lazy.

 

[Kavok]

Sir,

A might be able to help a little with the damage point. If you watch the 'from the Bridge' shot of the Reliant firing its aft torpedo and hitting the Enterprise, you will notice that it follows an inverse arc, ie. appearing to drop and rise again as it closes - just reappearing at the bottom of the viewscreen at the moment of impact. If the 'camera angle' is taken from the lowermost point of the saucer (centre, bottom), that is consistent with it hitting the underside of the saucer, towards the rear - and if you look closely the terminal motion has it moving slightly to port as well; hence an underneath/rear/left-and-side scorch mark.

I hypothesise that the torpedo was guided on to this point as the initial phaser run hit the port side abeam, logically this would tend to support the view that the port side shields were weakened and so the shot was aimed at that point, underneath the saucer on the port side.

As for the ST3 torpedo variation, on the Klingon side this seems easy-ish to explain. The commander ordered engines destroyed in order to take prisoners, thus fairly logically a disabling weapon could be selected rather than one designed to kill. Incorrectly 'configuring' a torpedo in this way would explain the execution of the first gunner on the Bird-of-Prey, where the second correctly configured his to cause an enourmour power surge similar in effect to an EMP - explaining the exploding bridge panels. The First officer reports "ready to fir emergency tube" after the Bird-of-Prey recovers control, suggesting a second weapon was available armed with a high-yield warhead for emergencies.

Throughout the movies, Federation torpedoes seemed to have a fairly uniform effect - ST1, 2, 3, 5, 6. Several hits to be registered, even against an unshielded target. But that is not to say Federation weapons could not be reconfigured too if the situation required it. Remember in TNG, probes were launched from the Torpedo tubes too, so some selectability is apparent. The fear, eg. ST6, of one torpedo doing crippling damage is undderstandable if it is assumed the enemy is aiming to destroy the target very quickly. This order is given by the Klingon Captain in ST1, though to no avail in his case.


Thus I in part agree with the right honourable gentleman Peterson. Khan 'wanted him to know first who had beaten him', probably explaining the delay before he would deliver the coup de grace or waiting to recieve Genesis data.

I hope this is partially illuminating!

Regards,
KvK

 

[Peterson]

Yes there are flaws in the movie, but this is one tired excuse that just doesn't fit. Yes it was made to look like a sub movie but they aren't hearing the actual kilrathi ship. Paladin hushes them because their excitement was premature. The pings are the sound of their own Sonar-like sensor array tracking the kilrathi ship that was turning to pass by again and bombard them.

I really don't see that scene as a legitimate critisism of anything in the movie.

Well, I was actually thinking of the sound of the missiles whistling down towards them. Going back to what I said before about perspective, since the scene is inside the Tiger Claw and the viewer hears the sound, it implies to me that the people you're sharing the perspective with (the characters) can, as well.

But I wasn't really bashing the WC movie, just making a glib remark.

I actually end up defending it most of the time. The criticism it gets that bugs me most is the fighters dipping as they launch from the Tiger Claw. People invariably moan that, "since there's no gravity in space, they shouldn't dip like modern fighters launching from an aircraft carrier". To which I just ask them to explain how there's gravity on the Tiger Claw in the first place. Because if you don't know how its gravitational field works, how can you comment on how it might affect objects that leave that field?

Star Trek, Star Wars all have sound in space.. About one of the only ones that doesn't is 2001.

Yep, and they do depict sound happening outside the ship from a perspective inside it, as in ST6 when you 'hear' the torpedo strike the Chancellor's ship on the Enterprise viewscreen.

More recently, Firefly didn't depict sound in space, though interestingly, Serenity did.

 

[Nomad Terror]

I was just thinking about Serenity. I don't actually remember there being any sounds other than what the main character might hear. For example when they are coasting through Reaver territory and then destroy the Reaver ship, you hear the muffled booms from the main turret, but you don't hear the Reaver ship explode.

Also all the faster than light effects looked like they'd be very loud but you didn't actually hear anything.

 

[LeHah]

Another thing that bugs me is that (according to ToS "cannon") the Federation developed photorp technology and the Klingons "aquired" it sometime before ST:TMP. Which is how it will always be in my heart.. and this is also one of the (many) reasons "Enterprise" made me soooo angry.

Are photon torpedos and photonic torpedos the EXACT same thing? I just assumed the photonic types were very, very early versions - hence the almost silly retro sci-fi name.

 

[Peterson]

I was just thinking about Serenity. I don't actually remember there being any sounds other than what the main character might hear. For example when they are coasting through Reaver territory and then destroy the Reaver ship, you hear the muffled booms from the main turret, but you don't hear the Reaver ship explode.

Also all the faster than light effects looked like they'd be very loud but you didn't actually hear anything.

There's a lot of sound in the battle at the end. And you hear the primary buffer panel come off at the beginning.

However, some of the sound is intentionally muted, eg. the turret is muted and subsequent explosion of the Reaver ship is silent, as you said.

 

[Nomad Terror]

I think I am just so accustomed to sound in space in sci-fi that I only notice when it's *not* there.

I like how the BSG remake approaches it, where everything in space is muffled unless it's really close (like weapons fire barely missing). Still not realistic but kind of a friendly reminder that sound doesn't run a great race in the vacuum of space.