Wolf 359 indiscrepency

frostytheplebe

frostytheplebe

Seventh Part of the Seal
There is something I've had a problem with for a while concerning the Battle of Wolf 359.

What we know:

At least 39 Federation starships were destroyed. It is believed that one escaped.

Admiral J.P. Hansen was in command of the fleet sent to engage the Borg.
-He took command of the U.S.S. Melbourne as his flagship.

The problem: Most fan sites, including Memory Alpha say that Hansen's USS Melbourne was a Nebula class starship, when we have visual proof that the Melbourne (DS9 Emissary) was infact an Excelsior class vessel.

They're explanation: There were two Melbourne's there. A prototype Nebula class and the Excelsior model. One was pressed back into service, while the other was rushed off the shipyard lines.

Honestly, this is pretty farfetched to me. Though we do see a Nebula class ship at Wolf 359, its a different model then the "prototype" they planned on using. I do not believe there WAS a nebula class Melbourne there.

My reasoning: 1. The ship ferried the Admiral around, like most Admirals in TNG was an Excelsior class starship.

2. The final transmittion from the Admiral on board the Melbourne showed the bridge of an unspecified ship. Clearly an older ship though as it carries Alert indicators from Kirks time (Wrath of Khan.)
 

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frostytheplebe said:
The problem: Most fan sites, including Memory Alpha say that Hansen's USS Melbourne was a Nebula class starship, when we have visual proof that the Melbourne (DS9 Emissary) was infact an Excelsior class vessel.
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So here's the first problem. It probably doesn't matter what fan sites say. Startrek.com uses your picture and calls it an Excelsior class ship: http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/library/ships/DS9/article/70441.html

frostytheplebe said:
They're explanation: There were two Melbourne's there. A prototype Nebula class and the Excelsior model. One was pressed back into service, while the other was rushed off the shipyard lines.

Honestly, this is pretty farfetched to me. Though we do see a Nebula class ship at Wolf 359, its a different model then the "prototype" they planned on using. I do not believe there WAS a nebula class Melbourne there.
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What's an indiscrepancy? Is that like a consistency? Anyhow, I'm not following what you're trying to say with your reasonings above, but if you really don't like the explanation that there were two Melbournes, then wouldn't it be easier to just assume Shelby made a mistake when pointing it out or that there was just some sort of lag between what she saw and said and what shows on the screen?
 
frostytheplebe said:
Admiral J.P. Hansen was in command of the fleet sent to engage the Borg.
-He took command of the U.S.S. Melbourne as his flagship.
Click to expand...

Incorrect. his ship was an unnamed Excelsior class ship. The idea that it was the Melbourne is incorrect speculation. "Emissary" showed us that the Excelsior-class Melbourne was destroyed early in the battle, but "Best of Both Worlds" suggests that during his transmission to the Enterprise that the battle had been going on for some time, so likely by this time the Excelsior-class Melbourne had already been destroyed. He was onboard an Excelsior, yes, but the Melbourne surely was not the only Excelsior in the battle.

Honestly, this is pretty farfetched to me. Though we do see a Nebula class ship at Wolf 359, its a different model then the "prototype" they planned on using. I do not believe there WAS a nebula class Melbourne there.
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The only footage you see of the Melbourne is a distant wreckage whose details cannot be discerned other than the two small warp engines where the sensor pod came to be on later Nebula ships. The model you see of the Melbourne later shows the two small warp pods at the top. I see no discrepancy.

My reasoning: 1. The ship ferried the Admiral around, like most Admirals in TNG was an Excelsior class starship.

2. The final transmittion from the Admiral on board the Melbourne showed the bridge of an unspecified ship. Clearly an older ship though as it carries Alert indicators from Kirks time (Wrath of Khan.)
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Yes and yes. This is how it went down. Why did you bring up nonexistent discrepancies in the first place?
 
ChrisReid said:
What's an indiscrepancy? Is that like a consistency? Anyhow, I'm not following what you're trying to say with your reasonings above, but if you really don't like the explanation that there were two Melbournes, then wouldn't it be easier to just assume Shelby made a mistake when pointing it out or that there was just some sort of lag between what she saw and said and what shows on the screen?
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Poor word choosing on my part... actually I just kinda made myself assume that she was looking at a ship we couldn't see.

Nomad Terror said:
Incorrect. his ship was an unnamed Excelsior class ship. The idea that it was the Melbourne is incorrect speculation. "Emissary" showed us that the Excelsior-class Melbourne was destroyed early in the battle, but "Best of Both Worlds" suggests that during his transmission to the Enterprise that the battle had been going on for some time, so likely by this time the Excelsior-class Melbourne had already been destroyed. He was onboard an Excelsior, yes, but the Melbourne surely was not the only Excelsior in the battle.
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I again concede that indescrepency was a poor word choice on my part... I guess I should just call it a weak plot point.
From the same website you have up, go to the section on the Melbourne http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/USS_Melbourne_%28NCC-62043%29. Cmdr. Riker declined, opting instead to remain at his post aboard the Enterprise. Admiral Hanson commanded the Melbourne as part of the Federation task force that stood against an invading Borg cube at the Battle of Wolf 359 in late 2366.

I do, however agree that the USS Melbourne was not the only Excelsior there. The Excelsiors at that point seemed to be the most numorous class of ship in the fleet at that time... either that or the aging Miranda class. (This is especially true if you've played ST: Borg, the Excelsior there is the USS Righteous.)

Bandit LOAF said:
Now go re-read my post from yesterday: http://www.crius.net/zone/showpost.php?p=348978&postcount=15
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Honestly I agree with you. I have no problem with Enterprise, the movies or anything of that nature. The Best of Both Worlds was one of my favorite episodes. For the most part, I usually defend the continuity, but the battle of Wolf 359... I dunno it was just always a big part for me (still recreate it in Legacy). So when I was reading up on the back story it just sort of annoyed me.

My apologies, I suppose I just needed to rant about it a little. But ranting over. You'll never find someone who loves ST more then I. I was drawing scribbles of the Enterprise since i was like 2 (think I still have those scribbles :p).

I don't know why, but any time I'm in a bad mood, and I don't feel like playing a game, I flick on one of my ST Seasons and it cools me down. Anyway, thanks for listening guys, I really do appreciate it.
 
frostytheplebe said:
The Excelsiors at that point seemed to be the most numorous class of ship in the fleet at that time... either that or the aging Miranda class. (This is especially true if you've played ST: Borg, the Excelsior there is the USS Righteous.)
Click to expand...

Well the Excelsior class was the replacement for the Constitution class. It would make sense that it would become a mainstay, since... that was the intention from the start. It's very evident in the original-crew movies that chronicle it's early years.

As for the Miranda... I bet it was just an interesting alternative to use so they didn't get stuck showing two or three types of ship for the Federation.
 
Memory Alpha also has that for the Nebula-class Melbourne.

The problem is that the whole point for the Melbourne in "Best of Both Worlds" was the impact that it would have on Riker and the audience knowing that if he had taken the captaincy of the Melbourne, then he likely would have died in the battle.

While I'm willing to accept the idea of two Melbournes at the battle, in the end it doesn't *really* matter since if there were two then both were destroyed by the time the Enterprise makes it to the system anyway.
 
I don't see what the error is in the first place... you can't tell what the ship is in BoBW and then it's clearly an Excelsior in The Emissary. The fan community deciding it must be something else just doesn't really seem to matter.

(And this is one of the big problems with the Star Trek community -- it's *so* internalized... everything they've personally decided *must* be right, even if there's direct evidence to the contrary.)
 
Does anyone have a copy of the Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual? If so, read through some of the captions at the bottom of the page where they step out of the technical aspects and talk about little pieces of trivia from the show. I believe, and i may be wrong on this, that there is a caption that talks about the Best of Both Worlds Battle and lists some of the wrecked ships, including a Nebula class USS Melbourne. This may be where it started.

Then, does anyone have a copy of the Star Trek Encyclopedia? If so look up the USS Melbourne. If I remember correctly, again I could be wrong because my books are in a box in the basement of my parents house, but I believe there is an article on the Mebourne and it is described as an Excelsior class ship. However I think there is discussion by Mike and Denise Okuda, who wrote the encyclopedia that the Melbourne was originally described as being a Nebula class (but never seen), but they changed it to being an Excelsior class for the DS9 episode Emissary.

Anyway, I am crossing my fingers that my memory is correct on this because I don't have these two books handy right now.
 
From the Star Trek Encyclopedia:

Melbourne, U.S.S.

Federation Starship, Excelsior-class, Starfeleet registry number NCC-62043.

Note: There were actually two Starships Melbourne unsed in these episodes. The first was a Nebula-class modell, barely glimpsed as a wrecked hulk in the spaceship graveyard from "The Best of Both Worlds, Part II" (TNG). When the scene was redone three years later for "Emissary" (DS9), a decision was made to instead use the more detailed U.S.S. Excelsior model orginally build for Star Trek III. Both models were given the same Starfleet registry number, but since the Excelsior version was seen fairly clearly on screen, and the Nebula version was not seen well, we now assume that the Melboure "really" was an Excelsior-class ship.

Deacan
 
t.c.cgi said:
Well the Excelsior class was the replacement for the Constitution class. It would make sense that it would become a mainstay, since... that was the intention from the start. It's very evident in the original-crew movies that chronicle it's early years.

As for the Miranda... I bet it was just an interesting alternative to use so they didn't get stuck showing two or three types of ship for the Federation.
Click to expand...

Yes, but then wouldn't the Ambassador class have been a replacement for the Excelsior? yet we see so few of those...
 
Does anyone have a copy of the Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual? If so, read through some of the captions at the bottom of the page where they step out of the technical aspects and talk about little pieces of trivia from the show. I believe, and i may be wrong on this, that there is a caption that talks about the Best of Both Worlds Battle and lists some of the wrecked ships, including a Nebula class USS Melbourne. This may be where it started.
Click to expand...

I can't find it -- the index says that the only mention of the Nebula-class is in one of these captions, but it's just all about who designed what ship (I did learn that the Enterprise-B was responsible for exploration "beyond the Gourami Sector." :) )

As for the Encyclopedia... there were multiple editions, it's possible that the original one lists a Nebula-class USS Melbourne based on 'behind the scenes' information (I only have the latest one on my shelf... I'm sure the original release is in a box somewhere and can be found given sufficient time.)

Yes, but then wouldn't the Ambassador class have been a replacement for the Excelsior? yet we see so few of those...
Click to expand...

The thing about Star Trek is that it very, very rarely says anything about anything like this. It's pretty rare for the on-screen 'canon' to even say what class a particular ship is... much less establish their exact history.

(Then we run into the problem of two bodies of further continuity: the official still-broad stuff in the technical manuals and novels and comics and such... and then the incredibly incredibly incredibly specific fan technical details that while incredibly fascinating aren't based on anything.)
 
LOAF: Maybe I was mistaken about the ST:TNG technical manual, but I do seem to remember a listing of the destroyed ships from Wolf 359 in TBoBW where several ship names were listed as well as their suggested or proposed class. It may have been an early addition of the Star Trek Chronology i had, which covered TOS, and I believe seasons 1-5 or 6 of TNG.

I think Deacon found the information from the Encyclopedia I was remembering though.

I totally agree with you, that they may have changed the information in subsequent editions of the Star Trek Encyclopedia and removed the information about it being suggested that the USS Melbourne was a Nebula class ship but then changing it to an Excelsior class ship for DS9 Emissary. I know my version of the Encyclopedia was an earlier one, it only covered TOS, TNG, and the 1st season of DS9. It didn't have anything about the Dominion or Voyager which were included in later editions.

Personally this is something that would have probably bothered me in the past. I used to wonder why the Enterprise always got a letter prefix for the newer versions of the ship "A", "B", "C", "D", but other names that were reused between TOS and TNG like Intrepid, Potemkin, Hood didn't and instead got new TNG registry numbers. Now though I'm past that, It doesn't change or ruin the show for me. I'd rather enjoy the show for the story and the characters, or dislike it for the same reason.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
(Then we run into the problem of two bodies of further continuity: the official still-broad stuff in the technical manuals and novels and comics and such... and then the incredibly incredibly incredibly specific fan technical details that while incredibly fascinating aren't based on anything.)
Click to expand...

The worst for me was how many of them included members of the ST crew, like a designer would assist or a SFX person or something so u'd think it was canon.

ck9791 said:
Personally this is something that would have probably bothered me in the past. I used to wonder why the Enterprise always got a letter prefix for the newer versions of the ship "A", "B", "C", "D", but other names that were reused between TOS and TNG like Intrepid, Potemkin, Hood didn't and instead got new TNG registry numbers. Now though I'm past that, It doesn't change or ruin the show for me. I'd rather enjoy the show for the story and the characters, or dislike it for the same reason.
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I always envisioned it was because the original Enterprise was such a historic ship that they wanted to preserve the namesake by keeping the original #... thats my guess anyway.
 
The only other two ships I can think of off the top of my head with letter-suffixed registries were the Galaxy-class USS Yamato (NCC-1305-E *only* in "Where Silence Has Lease." It was NCC-71807 in "Contagion") and the USS Dauntless (NX-01-A, though this ship turned out to be an alien fabrication and not an actual Starfleet Vessel)

I suppose either the writers just forgot about it or in-universe it became a tradition that was upheld solely for the Federation flagship USS Enterprise. We do know that in the Enterprise episode "Azati Prime," a possible future timeline includes the NCC-1701-J USS Enterprise, so at least in that timeline the tradition continued for at least another 5 vessels.

EDIT: I should also point out that the USS Yamato in "Where Silence Has Lease" was also a fabrication, albeit of a real ship pulled from the either the Enterprise's computer records or the crew's memory. So both of these ships we see with suffixed registries were not real.
 
Nomad Terror said:
I suppose either the writers just forgot about it or in-universe it became a tradition that was upheld solely for the Federation flagship USS Enterprise. We do know that in the Enterprise episode "Azati Prime," a possible future timeline includes the NCC-1701-J USS Enterprise, so at least in that timeline the tradition continued for at least another 5 vessels.
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I don't think its just for the Flagship. The original Enterprise wasn't the Flagship of the Federation.

Though I seem to remember reading somewhere (probably not canon) that the Flagship of the Federation before the Enterprise D was the USS Ambassador.
 
You guys seem to know alot about Startrek that's for sure :) ... I know the basics but you guys know alot... Impressive indeed.
 
I wasn't suggesting that the original USS Enterprise was the flagship of the Federation. I meant that perhaps it was a common practice but then it was only continued for the Enterprise after a certain point.
 
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