WingCommander-Simulator ? ?

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Originally posted by Knitewing
Not real sure. I'ld say more powerful with Jesus because he freed us from the restraints of Jewish law. So if you got into a creature fight the Jewish person would have to follow a bunch of rules and you wouldn't. I won't even go into the muslim thing *L*

Freed us ?
Probably you are a descendant of an Horde of Romans or some Barbarians or even worse a jew who changed his religion, not descendant of jews.
And what are the *Jewish restraints* last time i checked Bishops and all in the Cleric are the ones who can´t fuck.
If you by restarint mean not to eat pig or don´t mix milk products with meat....wow that is a restraint :rolleyes:
And also we have the coolest creature the GOLEM, what do you have (and by you i mean YOU)
 
Originally posted by Ghost


Freed us ?
Probably you are a descendant of an Horde of Romans or some Barbarians or even worse a jew who changed his religion, not descendant of jews.
And what are the *Jewish restraints* last time i checked Bishops and all in the Cleric are the ones who can´t fuck.
If you by restarint mean not to eat pig or don´t mix milk products with meat....wow that is a restraint :rolleyes:
And also we have the coolest creature the GOLEM, what do you have (and by you i mean YOU)

No, the coolest creature ever is a creature that Jews and Christians share: The Leviathan.
 
Originally posted by Lelapinmechant


They seem to flow quite easily into one another. How does it makes sense that "Micro" evolution, the mutation of small genetic traits within a few generations, could not lead to "macro" evolution, the development of a new species as a result of many, many such mutations taking place?
Micro: Animal "A" gets thumb. Micro: Animal "A" Gets Hips for walking upright. Micro: Animal "A" starts thinking allot, develops use of tools.

All of the sudden becomes

Macro: Animal "A" is now animal "B".

I could be flawed in my understanding, though. Feel free to correct me.


You're example is a bit off. The differance is light colored peppered moths survive until pollution kills off the light color lichen on the trees that the moths live on and then the dark colored peppered mothes become dominate. The genes were already there. The peppered moth does not have genes which will give it hips for walking upright.


Ghost. I am protestant so the clergy of my religion can marry and have sex. (Please keep the language clean) There are other strictures that we are freed from involving circumcision and the observance of the sabbath.

Cool Bandit LOAF can have his giant millipede while Lelapinmechant and I take Leviathan's *G*
 
Originally posted by Knitewing
You're example is a bit off. The differance is light colored peppered moths survive until pollution kills off the light color lichen on the trees that the moths live on and then the dark colored peppered mothes become dominate. The genes were already there. The peppered moth does not have genes which will give it hips for walking upright.
I find it somewhat ironic that the same people that discount evolution as utter nonsense in favor of the Bible believe:

1. Every living person on earth is the result of the incestuous coupling of Adam/Eve's children.
2. That Adam was more than 500 years old (I think it is actually close to 900) when he died.
3. That Moses lived hundreds of years as well and that all the animals on the planet are the result of just 2 animals of each species.
4. A half dozen or so apostles (or whomever) wrote various parts of the Bible under the spell of God.

Given any one of these (and numerous others I'm sure) - is it that difficult to believe that man could have alternatively evolved from apes?
 
Originally posted by Knitewing

Ghost. I am protestant so the clergy of my religion can marry and have sex. (Please keep the language clean) There are other strictures that we are freed from involving circumcision and the observance of the sabbath.

The word *Freed* implies that you were slave to those things, i don´t think that YOU were tied to both of them or any other since you aren´t a jew, and you live now in the 2002 not in the 0 or before, and i don´t think that the jews feel *slaves* of the circumsicion and the observance of the sabbath, it is an honor and a compromise with God

Originally posted by Marcml30

3. That Moses lived hundreds of years as well and that all the animals on the planet are the result of just 2 animals of each species.

Moses lived 120 years, not many hundreds,maybe you confuse Moses with Matusalen
 
Please change the subject, we all know what is the fate of this thread if it keeps going this way.

Discussing religion in a WC board is a really stupid thing to do, unless you talk about The Cult of Sivar... :D
 
Originally posted by Marcml30

I find it somewhat ironic that the same people that discount evolution as utter nonsense in favor of the Bible believe:

1. Every living person on earth is the result of the incestuous coupling of Adam/Eve's children.
That's faith for ya.

2. That Adam was more than 500 years old (I think it is actually close to 900) when he died.
Anyone and everyone has commented on the odd ages, as well as the fact that everyone starts living much shorter lives post-flood. Considering all the OTHER things in the Bible to nit-pick about (say, parting the Red Sea, making a little bit of meal and oil last for several years, etc...), this seems a rather odd thing to bring up.

3. That Moses lived hundreds of years as well and that all the animals on the planet are the result of just 2 animals of each species.
Someone else already commented on the fact that Moses's listed age only comes out to 120 years. In addition, a basic understanding of the Bible will impart the simple knowledge that the number 40 in the Hebrew culture (of the time - not sure about now) is pretty much the same as 'a lot' - i.e. my guess is that in each of the three phases of his life, a lot of time passed, and no one is certain exactly how much. '40' is just the way they expressed that.

4. A half dozen or so apostles (or whomever) wrote various parts of the Bible under the spell of God.
Let's see...
Mathew
John the Revelator
Peter (a few letters)
Paul (a whole lot of letters)
Maybe one other.
So actually even fewer than you claim (i.e. four, maybe five apostles). Honestly, I don't understand what's so strange about their writings that would connote them being under a 'spell' (except the Revelation of St. John). As far as most of them were concerned, what they were writing about was either History (the Gospels and Acts of the Apostles) or letters concerning doctrinal questions. The Revelation of St. John is the only one that doesn't fit that profile, and in that regard, it has some similarities with some of the Old Testament books.

Given any one of these (and numerous others I'm sure) - is it that difficult to believe that man could have alternatively evolved from apes?
Given the alternative, is it so difficult to believe that man didn't evolve from apes?
*chuckle*
What you believe is what you believe. Try to remember that some of us may not have experienced the same things you have, and may have experienced things that you have not.
 
Milo once again we have to make a distinction between Micro and Macro evolution. Micro evolution is proven while macro isn't.
What I posted was a definition for the theory of evolution as studied by biologists: genetic changes in a population which are inherited by subsequent generations over time. The fact that these changes occur is an observed phenomenon. The theory (stated loosely) is that individual changes are introduced by random mutation, and that changes in allele frequency over the population are the result of natural selection for environmental fitness. This theory explains the observed phenomena, and has application in biology, medicine, and epidemiology as well as software and mathematics.

You have introduced two new terms to the debate: "micro-evolution" and "macro-evolution". You have neither defined them, nor provided a reference to a generally accepted definition of them. If I were to guess, my guess would be that your definition for "micro-evolution" would be similar to the definition of "evolution" as used by biologists. My guess would be that you would claim that "macro-evolution" refers to evolutionary transition between different "kinds", perhaps at the species, genus, or family levels (or higher). You claim that there is a distinction between these two theories, and that one has been "proven" while the other has not.

No scientific theory can ever be "proven" or "disproven" in a formal sense. Proof is the domain of mathematics and logic, not of the sciences that study the natural world. Scientific theories can only be refined to incorporate new principles that better explain the observed phenomena, or provide better predictions about phenomena yet to be observed. Very rarely, an entire theory is discarded when a better, more powerful set of principles is elucidated. In these cases, the new theory must always subsume the predictions made by the discarded theory. An example of this occuring in the world of physics would be the adoption of Einstein's Theories of Relativity in place of Newton's Principia Mathematica. So far, no one has offered a replacement for the biological theory of evolution which does a better job of explaining the evidence, or makes better predictions about the kinds of evidence that may be observed in the future.

So, I would have to say that your claim does not make sense to me, because you are using the terms "evolution", "theory", and "proof" differently than I understand them to be used.
 
Originally posted by junior
i.e. my guess is that in each of the three phases of his life, a lot of time passed, and no one is certain exactly how much. '40' is just the way they expressed that.
Well there must be a way to figure the true age by examination: Okay this passage talks about Moses and so-and-so who's the son of the son of the son of the son…and so on. And what about Adam? Wasn't his age supposed to be in the hundreds (or some other multiple of 40)?


Honestly, I don't understand what's so strange about their writings that would connote them being under a 'spell' (except the Revelation of St. John). As far as most of them were concerned, what they were writing about was either History (the Gospels and Acts of the Apostles) or letters concerning doctrinal questions.
Okay, now which one of the ones you mentioned was there to see God create everything? You know, the 6 days, rest, et al? The 'spell' (I can't think of the religious word for it) seems necessary if one is to believe that the Bible is infallible isn't it? All of the religious doctrine I've run across seems to rely on the premise that the Bible is an infallible record of events.
 
I have millions of years if my year measurement is 1 Year=1 sec
Nobody said that the Bible use our Calendar time, AFAIK the calendar in those years could be very different thatn ours.
And you was there to see how the world was created?
And NO the bible isn´t an infallible book of records, it´s a book of history and laws.
 
Originally posted by Ghost
I have millions of years if my year measurement is 1 Year=1 sec
Nobody said that the Bible use our Calendar time, AFAIK the calendar in those years could be very different thatn ours.
And you was there to see how the world was created?
And NO the bible isn´t an infallible book of records, it´s a book of history and laws.
You may be right about the calendar time but I would think that there would be a way to correlate ages from passages in the Bible. I guess both were just very very OLD.

Nope, I was not around to see the world created and neither were any of the people that junior mentioned so how do we know if what they wrote was correct? Where did the information about the beginning of earth come from if not directly from God? See, I've always been told/heard that the Bible is infallible. Mainly because (my interpretation) if it is not infallible then the door is open, even if just a crack, for people to question inaccuracies. For example, "If this is incorrect then couldn't… the Flood, Jesus' ascension, etc… also be incorrect? That's why you have these inane arguments about a passage in the Bible that refers to rabbits chewing their cud and such. There are a number of debates raging about even smaller inconsistencies in the Bible than the one I just mentioned.
 
Milo you are wrong about proving things scientificly. but that aside yes biologist have observed evolution of bacteria but once again the things they are observing are STILL bacteria. They haven't produced a muskrat yet. As I have stated many times in this thread the DNA for all the changes the bacteria go through is already there. Nothing new is introduced. Some things are exagerated but they are still the traits of bacteria. Macro evolution assumes that a bacteria will grow an ear even though it has no need to hear and that it will keep it and pass it on to it's offspring.

If you want to use mathmatics to PROVE something then as I posted earlier mathmatics show the chance of developing one viable protien molecule randomly is 1 in 10 to the 60th power. Thats just the biological odds. Add in the fact that if the Earth were 2-5% further or closer to the sun, there were just 1% change in sunlight, the rotation of the earth being faster or slower, a smaller earth, a larger earth, a smaller or larger moon, more than one moon, if the earth's crust were thinner or thicker, the oxegen to nitrogen ratio any differant, the ozone greater or lesser. If any one of these things were differant then life could not have developed. The odds skyrocket. As I said before scientist have determined (Look it up in any probability text book) that 1 in 10 to the 50th power is beyond reason.

That God created man, controled the DNA of the children to produce the offspring he intended and had people live long enough to populate the planet doesn't seem so far fetched to me. You guys who are amazed that I discount the improbabilities of the evolutionist view while I accept the biblical version of creation fail to take into account that in my version there is an all powerful being controling things while in the evolutionist view all these things, which mathmatics say is beyond reason, happened randomly.
 
Originally posted by Marcml30

You may be right about the calendar time but I would think that there would be a way to correlate ages from passages in the Bible. I guess both were just very very OLD.

The problem is that the Bible was compilated by Ezrah and others in the -700 approx, They did´t have too much data in his time, and as can you see, the problem with the dates, is mainly in the Genesis, that happened many centuries before.

Originally posted by Marcml30

Nope, I was not around to see the world created and neither were any of the people that junior mentioned so how do we know if what they wrote was correct?

We don´t know, nobody said that was correct, call it faith ;)
 
I will point out that every finite probablility is a certainty in an infinite universe...
 
Originally posted by Knitewing
The fossile evidence you refer to about dating some life on earth back 700 million years and 2.8 billion years is from an antiquated carbon dating system which no one uses anymore because it was wildly inaccuarate. Please use modern science, not science fiction.
Err, no... carbon dating is a system which was never used to date fossils, for the very simple reason that it's only accurate up to about 40 thousand years (and even then, it can really only be accurately used to compare the relative age between organic objects found at the same location). Fossils, on the other hand, are assigned approximate dates based on their location in the ground - geologists have a pretty good idea of when various strata of the Earth had been formed, so that dating system remains rather convincing. Indeed, it *must* be convincing, since I've seen more than a few anti-evolutionists use it to show that the evolution isn't taking place :).

Why are you guys so resistant to the idea of God with all the facts laid out in front of you? (By facts I mean stuff from 1970 to present )
You assume that we reject the idea of Creation because we accept the idea of evolution? Why?

Also, in regards to your later post - the Kilrathi women do not have it bad at all. I don't know where you get the 'lock and key' idea from - we know that Kilrathi women are in charge of religion (which certainly indicates they have some power at least), but we don't really know anything else, so there is no way you can claim the Kilrathi women are repressed in any way.
 
Originally posted by Marcml30

Nope, I was not around to see the world created and neither were any of the people that junior mentioned so how do we know if what they wrote was correct? Where did the information about the beginning of earth come from if not directly from God? See, I've always been told/heard that the Bible is infallible. Mainly because (my interpretation) if it is not infallible then the door is open, even if just a crack, for people to question inaccuracies. For example, "If this is incorrect then couldn't… the Flood, Jesus' ascension, etc… also be incorrect? That's why you have these inane arguments about a passage in the Bible that refers to rabbits chewing their cud and such. There are a number of debates raging about even smaller inconsistencies in the Bible than the one I just mentioned.

With the notable exception of John, the people I listed don't talk about the creation. John touches on it very, very briefly at the beginning of his gospel (In the beginning was the word...), but its just a small part of it, is not a narrative, and hardly fits what you discussed.
The creation is pretty much confined to the Old Testament - specifically Moses (as Genesis is attributed to him).
And while, yes, certain parts of it would have to have been received through prophetic revelation, VAST portions of the writings are the equivalent of historical documents. Kings and Chronicles are perfect examples of these.
As far as a 'spell' goes, I would assume you're using that to refer to revelation and prophetic visions.
As far as infallibility goes, well...
Its a bunch of books from a number of different authors. Some of the books are attributed to prophets, some are attributed to the court historians, and others contain inspired quotations. These books have been around for a long time, and the printing press and more modern methods of creating exact copies have only been around for a very, very short portion of that time (even the printing press doesn't provide an exact copy, though, since type can easily fall out of the old presses).
Paper wears out, and the only method of getting new copies was to have a man sit in a room and copy, by hand, the text of the book onto a new copy.
I would guess that, every now and then, that old man made a mistake. Sometimes he would catch the mistake, but if it was a minor difference, he might not worry too much about it.

As far as knowing whether or not its correct, its pretty much a matter of faith. But then again, so is watching footage of the Hindenburg disaster, and believing that it actually took place. Angels using camcorders to record the creation of the world so that a prophet millenia later could see it does sound a little odd, but isn't impossible.

For some reason, all of this has reminded me of something one of my college English professors once said. I have no idea if the man was religious or not, but he once pointed out something interesting. According to him, the question wasn't WHETHER God could create a rock that God couldn't move. The question was WHY would God want to create that rock in the first place?
And that, more or less, is my take on theological arguments that involve rabbits chewing their cud.
 
Originally posted by Knitewing
Milo you are wrong about proving things scientificly.

In what way?

but that aside yes biologist have observed evolution of bacteria but once again the things they are observing are STILL bacteria. They haven't produced a muskrat yet. As I have stated many times in this thread the DNA for all the changes the bacteria go through is already there. Nothing new is introduced. Some things are exagerated but they are still the traits of bacteria. Macro evolution assumes that a bacteria will grow an ear even though it has no need to hear and that it will keep it and pass it on to it's offspring.

If that is your definition of macro-evolution, then I agree with you. Bacteria with ears? That doesn't happen. No credible biologist has ever claimed anything even remotely similar to what you just stated. In fact, I don't even know why you would call that "macro-evolution" since it has nothing to do with evolution. You could just as easily have called it "macro-assembler".

Evolution suggests that changes in the genome occur by random mutation. Most of these changes are minor and irrelevant. A few changes are more drastic - creation of an additional chromosome or trisomy. Many mutations are detrimental, and natural selection prevents them from being inherited by killing the mutated organism before it has time to mature and reproduce. Most others are of neutral survival impact (e.g. lighter or darker skin, hair, or eyes). Some of these neutral mutations may become beneficial if the environment changes or the population moves to a new environment. A few other mutations may even be beneficial in the current environment (e.g. strains of bacteria that develop resistance to antibiotics).

Evolution also suggests, and the fossil record strongly supports, that these changes accumulate over time in such a way that modern types of organism evolved from more primitive types.

If you want to use mathmatics to PROVE something then as I posted earlier mathmatics show the chance of developing one viable protien molecule randomly is 1 in 10 to the 60th power.

The fact that you stated nonsense before and are now restating it does not make it suddenly make sense. There is no meaningful way to calculate the statistical odds of the formation of a protein molecule from random processes. The theory of evolution does not even claim that such a thing happened. You are making what is called a "straw-man argument."

You haven't used mathematics to prove anything. In fact, you haven't even provided a citation for what is a prima facie an absurd claim.

That God created man, controled the DNA of the children to produce the offspring he intended and had people live long enough to populate the planet doesn't seem so far fetched to me.

OK, let's try this: I have provided a concise definition of evolution, and I have tried to explain what it does and does not say. Perhaps you could provide a definition of creationism as you understand it to be? I would be especially interested to learn in what ways creation provides a better explanation of the observed evidence than evolution does. In particular:

1. Why does the fossil record show almost exclusively primitive forms in lower strata and almost exclusively more recent forms in upper strata?

2. If there were no intermediate forms created, then why are there so many thousands of intermediate forms in the fossil record?

3. How does creationism account for the distribution of species geographically throughout the world? Why are marsupials only native to Australia, and tomatoes only native to the Americas?

4. Are there any cases where the creationist model makes better predictions about the kind of evidence one could expect to find in the field than the evolution model does?

5. What would be an example of an observation that someone might make that would change the way you think about creationism? How would you go about refining your model to account for the new evidence? (By that, I mean what process would you use, not what specific changes would need to be made.)
 
One tenet that undergirds it all, in the final analysis:

"God is large and in charge" :cool:

(Lo siento; no tengo el tiempo ahora por un mas grande mensaje...).
 
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