Why we should vote a third party

I don't think that's really correct -- practically speaking the whole country is "Christian". A major Republican base right now is evangelical Christians... but they don't come close to being either the whole of the party or the whole of Christendom.

(Similarly, you wouldn't call the Democrats the *black* party since they play to that base.)

Yes, but Republicans tend to make a bigger point of being Christians and have integrated a lot of Christian morality into their political platform.

As it is, it's pretty hard to define the Republican party without calling it the Christian party, even when they don't behave at all like Christians.
 
Oh and Democrats are blue donkeys, and republicans are red elephants.

Yeah, I was pretty surprised when I learned that they have such weird symbols.

I kinda understand the one with the red elephant. Red is a main color of the US-flag, an elephant is a strong animal (perhaps not fully suitable because there are no elephants in the US, except those in a zoo or something like that) But there are elephants in africa, maybe they do like the african americans! :D

But the one with the donkey....
I thought: Come on! A blue donkey??? You must be kidding me!
I mean.... Blue is ok, it is a color of the flag, it's cool.
I don't know how it is like in the US, but in Germany the donkey stands for... well... not quite intelligent, we use to call dumb peaple or people who misbehave "Esel" which means donkey. Also a donkey is known to be bullheaded, so it might be more suitable for conservative parties (but they wouldn't choose it by theirselves).

Quite weird....
 
Pinning either of the big political parties in the US to a particular set of policies is, at best, an exercise in oversimplification. In neither of them (or any of the others worth naming) is it required that all members hold to one position or another on any issue, and if they don't agree they're kicked out of the party. Heck, in some cases the "R" or "D" is simply a matter of choosing which one has a higher representation in the general public, for those who vote straight party ticket (that is, the voting system is set so that you can make one selection, be it electronic checkbox, hole punched in a card, or lever pulled [which can also result in a punched card, depending on the specific setup], to select the candidates from single party across all the offices that are being contested in that election).

Also, the parties have changed over time, to the point that members of the party from one era may not even recognize those of another era as being part of the same party. I suspect that the parties of, for example, the WW2 generation would have more than a few disagreements with those of this generation, to the point of "what the hell did you do to my party?!".

All in all, it's not as simple as to say "X party is for (or against) Y issue", in regards to politics in general, particularly in the US.

With internet idiocy being as it is, this usually leads to people being fuckheaded, hence my somewhat indirect warning up towards the top of this thread. Intelligent commentary is welcome, fuckheadery is not.
 
A hundred and forty years ago, the roles were reversed.

We hear this a lot, but it isn't entirely true. For example, in 1856 as in 2008 the Republican party is at its very core the party of 'big business'. It's just that a lot of the issues surrounding that goal have changed -- supporting business in the 19th century meant opposing slavery in order to break the agrarian south's 90-year stranglehold on politics... today it means arguing for a particular sort of tax system. The overall intent hasn't changed - we just forget the initial purpose because the side effect was so noble.

(Similarly, I probably don't have to tell you that all the 19th century rhetoric about 'states rights' on the part of the Southern Democrats was disingenuous -- the party supported social programs through the Federal government from very early on. A lot of those things aren't recognizable to us at this point, because we don't assosciate Indian relocation, preserving slavery in the territories and prohibition in the same breathe as social security, medicare and civil rights... but they're similar sweeping uses of the Federal government.)

So: the famous 'switch' your parents and grandparents talk about isn't so much in party ideology as it is in geographic support. Lyndon Johnson threw the party's support behind the civil rights movement in the 1960s... which effectively ended a hundred and fifty years of Southern states voting Democrat and a century of Democrats treading very carefully when it came to worrying about offending the south. The practical effect was more that it transferred the 'divide' from one party to the others - for the past forty years the Republicans have had to check their rhetoric to maintain that voting bloc...

I kinda understand the one with the red elephant. Red is a main color of the US-flag, an elephant is a strong animal (perhaps not fully suitable because there are no elephants in the US, except those in a zoo or something like that) But there are elephants in africa, maybe they do like the african americans!

The symbols are self-effacing -- they were first used to represent the parties by political cartoonists in the 1870s (during Reconstruction). As in Germany, donkeys represent stupidity... and elephants are slow, overly large and lumbering. The colors aren't actually used by the parties, they come from the recent elections where the TV news used red to represent states voting Republican and blue to represent ones voting Democrat (the actual 'animal logos' are red, white and blue for both parties). For example, you might notice that all the McCain signage is predominantly blue. Red is hard to use in advertising... and used unsparingly it's still assosciated with Communism.

Also, the parties have changed over time, to the point that members of the party from one era may not even recognize those of another era as being part of the same party. I suspect that the parties of, for example, the WW2 generation would have more than a few disagreements with those of this generation, to the point of "what the hell did you do to my party?!".

More than that, time and tides effect what a party will do in any real world sense. No matter how much Reagan might have believed in small government, it wasn't something he could even begin to fight for while trying to win an arms race with the Russians. On an even more basic level, stated ideology never trumphs practical roles... the different branches of government will always put maintaining (and increasing) their power above the core beliefs of men who died a century or more ago.

Yes, but Republicans tend to make a bigger point of being Christians and have integrated a lot of Christian morality into their political platform.

Here's the thing that bugs me about most about modern campaigns: everyone involved in the process is smart enough to know that it's mindless lip service, on both sides. It's a zero sum game because our system of balances means that the court gets the final say on any of this 'morality legislation'. Watch this year and see how excited the pro-choice/pro-life groups get. Everyone is at eachothers throats over something that... can't be changed. Neither executive nor legislature may effect Roe v Wade - so when I see Obama talking about how he'll protect that right and McCain talking about how he'll appoint judges that will change the law I know that they're both consciously lying to me.

The court, as with the other two branches, is more interested in its own legitimacy. Unlike the other two, its specifics and role aren't even protected by the Constitution... so it is very, very conscious of issue controversial rulings. More importantly, it is not beholden to anyone as the judges are appointed for life. We have seven-out-of-nine judges appointed by 'conservative' Presidents right now and the sky isn't falling - because they're independant operators not controlled by a party, because they go through (what is now) an extremely moderating confirmation and because their job requires that they legislate based on precedent rather than personal interest. The only way to change our abortion ruling is to have another case come up for discussion and for there to be extremely compelling evidence to support a change. Otherwise the system falls apart and all involved know it (Tte President knows that he can not collude with the court, regardless of ability or desire -- it ruined Buchanan's presidency on *day two* and later almost destroyed the then-popular Roosevelt.)
 
The court, as with the other two branches, is more interested in its own legitimacy. Unlike the other two, its specifics and role aren't even protected by the Constitution... so it is very, very conscious of issue controversial rulings. More importantly, it is not beholden to anyone as the judges are appointed for life. We have seven-out-of-nine judges appointed by 'conservative' Presidents right now and the sky isn't falling - because they're independant operators not controlled by a party, because they go through (what is now) an extremely moderating confirmation and because their job requires that they legislate based on precedent rather than personal interest. The only way to change our abortion ruling is to have another case come up for discussion and for there to be extremely compelling evidence to support a change. Otherwise the system falls apart and all involved know it (Tte President knows that he can not collude with the court, regardless of ability or desire -- it ruined Buchanan's presidency on *day two* and later almost destroyed the then-popular Roosevelt.)

It is true that the courts are a separate branch of government and the judges are appoint for life or until they retire. However, federal judges are appointed by the administration, and the current administration will appoint people to roles who seem to agree with the administrations line. On the district level ideology is almost a non-factor, but when it comes to appeal courts or, and especially, the Supreme Court how a judge has ruled on certain cases will affect whether or not they are appointed by the current administration. Conservative Presidents will appoint judges that have ruled conservatively, and liberal Presidents will appoint judges that have ruled liberally.

Like you said most judges are more concerned with the integrity of the court than ideology, but it will always play a factor at least in so far as legal theory they apply when ruling.

their job requires that they legislate based on precedent rather than personal interest.

FYI (because I'm an overly nitpicky), Legislators legislate, judges adjudicate
 
That's the theory the various candidates would like to sell you -- in practice, justices don't fall into ideological lines so easily and they don't endanger the court for political purposes.
 
That's the theory the various candidates would like to sell you -- in practice, justices don't fall into ideological lines so easily and they don't endanger the court for political purposes.

Oh, I never meant to suggest that judges were political at all, but there initial appointments are. If it wasn't for the congressional confirmation process there would be all sorts of crazy extreme judges. Since the Senate has to confirm judicial appointments the administration can't just appoint someone that just tows the line. They have to be 1) qualified for the job, 2) relatively moderate and 3) apolitical. If they're not then they get "Borked." However the administration dose get the courts to be closer aligned with their own view.

One of the reasons for presidential term limits is to mitigate the effects that constant judicial appointments would bring.
 
Of course, being political appointments may not mean all that much, either.

Just ask Bush Sr. about his pick. :p

The best thing about Souter is that Brock Adams, Daniel Akaka, Bill Bradley, Alan Cranston, Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, Frank Lautenberg and Barbara Mikulski opposed him because they felt he'd be too conservative.
 
Barack Obama is the first African-American presidential candidate on a prime party ticket. He also has had an assassination attempt against him foiled. Sounds an awful lot like 24 doesn't it?

What's wromg with that? I'd have loved David Palmer instead of that Bush guy, or Obama as Prez, but I'm biased.
 
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