Who is most evil?

EEEEEVHAL

  • Kitties

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  • Black Lance

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  • Total voters
    53
Originally posted by TC


Well... Blair *did* commit treason... If someone commits treason and then shows up on Earth a little while later blabbering on about a conspiricy and flying one of the ships that's been commiting all these atrocities, one wouldn't expect them to be treated with a great amount of kindness unless they had a hell of a lot of proof that they weren't behind it.


That is true, TC, but I have to say that I'll agree with Paladin's words on that one, "If anyone here has earned the right to a hearing, it is Christopher Blair."

So while one would agree that they wouldn't be as apt to listen to him as they would be, (was he still with Confed) it still seems like they were a bit quick in determining his fate. (Assuming you argue wrong.)
 
In their eyes he deserted, defected to an enemy force and fought and killed officers of the Confederation... No matter what he'd done previously, that's a hell of a crime for a man in the military.

TC
 
Which raises the question, how the heck did he get into the Senate chamber while they were in the middle of a war vote? (Not just to the Capitol or the Senate building, which the Dragon could have taken him, but right past the guards.) Security must have been pretty darn lax for someone wanted on so many counts to get right into the heart of the government like that.

And while we're on subjecr of strange happennings, the other thing that always puzzled me about that showdown was just why the Tolwyn blurted out his plans like that. Sure, Blair scored some points if you argue right, but what really did Tolwyn in was what he said himself.

Best, Raptor
 
One option of Blair getting close in his dragon is he went in cloaked, or no-one thought it was an "enemy" because how would they get an dragon?

I guess the why Tolwyn said so much because he wanted it so bad... well, you know what i mean. he got over-exited :rolleyes:
 
That is true again, TC, I hadn't even really thought of it like that.

Well, I can see that Tolwyn might have gotten rather flustered when his well thought out plans were so bashed on. (He was an extremely proud man) And when something you've worked so hard for is ridiculed, you tend to step up and defend it, even if it's not the best thing to do.

The only thing I can think of on Blair getting in, is that news of his defection was not commonplace. After all, Tolwyn told Paladin that it was still rumor (during that scene), and then had to inform the Senate at the time. (Although for some reason I keep thinking that they had it on the news, which would nullify that theory-but I haven't played IV in a long time.)
 
After you had defected and died in a mission, the news flash would say that the "traitor Christopher Blair had died".

The Dragon must have been cloaked (even though the approach FMV shows it uncloaked). As for inside the building: Don't have a clue. Maybe he had someone on the inside. Eisen's friends or something.
 
To those wondering how Blair got in - the book explains this by having Blair get in with Paladin's help. This is a bit difficult to reconcile with the losing path of the game (where Paladin clearly isn't much impressed with Blair), but the losing paths are always difficult to reconcile with the rest of the game for obvious reasons ;).

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
Now, this fact was essentially right -- but consider the fact that regardless of Confed's ability to convert massive resources to war, the Kilrathi industrial might *did* end up dominating the Confederation in the end... we won the war for other reasons.
True, yet this seems to prove my point - had Confed not lost a large portion of its fleet in the first blow, its industrial might may have enabled it to soon mobilise a force much larger than that of the Kilrathi. As it was, they spent 34 years just trying to catch up in numbers - in that aspect, the initial Kilrathi blow seemed to be at least a partial succes. And then, of course, came BoT, and the destruction of Confed's industrial might.

These reasons are what Tolwyn hopes to get out of a prolonged struggle for the Confederation -- in his view, military technology develops far more quickly in wartime, and politicians are far more willing to stand together to support the military that will be required for preventing the next threat.
Yeah, and under most circumstances he'd be correct that military development is faster in war. But in this case, such policies may have turned out to be counter-productive - we have plenty of evidence that Confed's economy is in very, very bad shape in '73, and you can't pull military development out of thin air. It's quite amazing, really, that he managed to find enough money to finance the Dragons, and their weaponry without anybody getting concerned about the black ops budget (the Senate didn't know what the money was being spent on, but they would have known how much).

I'm not so sure -- how many of us were aware of the existence of the GE program during the war? The plan was that the people of the Confederation would believe that the Union of Border Worlds had seceeded and then launched a devastating biological attack -- would they listen to this supposed horrific enemy's claims that they're innocent? We certainly put little credibility in Afghan claims that the United States is plotting to overthrow Islam...
That certainly is a point. In fact, post-September 11th, it's rather interesting to see how easily Blair and Maniac dismissed the deaths of 3000 people on that station. Though that's probably because they were used to much worse during the war.
Yet, on the other hand, one wonders how willing the west would be to ignore the Afghan point of view if Afghanistan was, say, Canada. I think that most Americans would be at least a bit suspicious of what appeared to be a Canadian attempt to wipe them out. Certainly, when Sept 11th happened, you didn't see US senators proclaiming that "No, it's worse! The Canadian Militia is behind it!" :)

In *our* mind it's a special war -- because we know what's going on. But the masses don't and probably wouldn't. Blair knew about such atrocities because he was party to them first hand -- the masses would not be. The idea is to credit the Border Worlds with the bioweapons... not to stand up and go "Oh, we attacked our own civilians with bio-weapons! Go fight for us!".
Yes, but it's not the masses that matter, but the very people who witness them first-hand - the soldiers. I mean, the anti-war movement in the 70s didn't start at home - it started in Vietnam, and then exploded at home.

And remember, of course, that almost any 'what if the Black Lance won in WCIV and went on to succeed in their plans' means that Blair and company probably no longer exist (even ignoring the previously dammed what-if scenario: look at the democratic Confederation's willingness to execute its greatest war hero if he cannot prove absolutely that Tolwyn is behind all this...)
Yes, Blair & co. do not exist - but in at least some scenarios, Eisen is around and clearly somebody at least had believed him. People who believe that the BW is not behind the attacks on civilian convoys are equally unlikely to believe that it's behind a bio-weapon attack. This is not, as you point out, the view of the masses - but the people who helped Eisen are certainly high enough in Confed HQ to be able to get an internal inquiry going. Actually, it would be interesting to see what Eisen had done had Blair failed - surrendering the Mt St Helens wouldn't have been much of an option, since everybody onboard would have faced the firing squad.

Not necessarily -- Kruger certainly has no love for the Confederation... but that's just one aspect of his personality: look at him in Fleet Action... he wasn't interested in helping the Confederation, even when they were faced with certain destruction.
Yes - which is why I think that his willingness to lend fighters to the BW has such significance. He certainly wasn't especially interested in lending fighters to Confed in FA, so why would he lend them to the BW, unless he understood that the conflict would affect him sooner or later?

Look at the situation in the Kilrathi empire -- five way civil war... they're busy, and I'm sure they wouldn't mind seeing humans kill eachother.
Well, that is certainly a point impossible to dispute :).
 
Some might say I'm digressing just a lil bit...

The Black Lance cannot be considered the most evil because they were nothing but pawns under the control of Tolwyn and other shot-callers in The Project. Yes, they mercilessly turned against their own race, but what proof is there that these individuals actually believed in the cause they were fighting for? They are basically glorified mercenaries part of an uprising that was so quickly squashed, no serious significance can be attached to it. I mean, the Mandarins were in existence for much longer and there is no mention of them as a contender for most evil. True, the BL conducted far more wanton, senseless acts of terrorism, but remember that though The Project was in development for years, the actual active lifespan of the BL was a matter of weeks.
 
So you're saying that the Black Lancers, despite not believing in what they did, were mercenaries who destroyed refugee convoys and and dropped bioweapons on civilian targets for money? And this makes them better how exactly? And the fact that they were only active for short time before being exposed and brought down brought speaks only about their comepetence, not their moral standing.

Best, Raptor
 
The Black Lance cannot be considered the most evil because they were nothing but pawns under the control of Tolwyn and other shot-callers in The Project. Yes, they mercilessly turned against their own race, but what proof is there that these individuals actually believed in the cause they were fighting for? They are basically glorified mercenaries part of an uprising that was so quickly squashed, no serious significance can be attached to it. I mean, the Mandarins were in existence for much longer and there is no mention of them as a contender for most evil. True, the BL conducted far more wanton, senseless acts of terrorism, but remember that though The Project was in development for years, the actual active lifespan of the BL was a matter of weeks.

There's no proof that they believed in the plan -- heck, there's evidence they didn't... but they still did horrible things. We're not blaming the individuals, though -- we're blaming the ideals and plans of the group.

True, yet this seems to prove my point - had Confed not lost a large portion of its fleet in the first blow, its industrial might may have enabled it to soon mobilise a force much larger than that of the Kilrathi. As it was, they spent 34 years just trying to catch up in numbers - in that aspect, the initial Kilrathi blow seemed to be at least a partial succes. And then, of course, came BoT, and the destruction of Confed's industrial might.

I think it's academic -- even Vakka knew that Confed would be crippled somewhat... he just didn't think that they would be destroyed.

The fact that there *was* a Battle of Terra more or less proves Vakka wrong, though -- the Kilrathi war-based industry with less people/resources/technology was eventually able to produce a superior force capable of once again driving the war to the Confederation.

Yeah, and under most circumstances he'd be correct that military development is faster in war. But in this case, such policies may have turned out to be counter-productive - we have plenty of evidence that Confed's economy is in very, very bad shape in '73, and you can't pull military development out of thin air. It's quite amazing, really, that he managed to find enough money to finance the Dragons, and their weaponry without anybody getting concerned about the black ops budget (the Senate didn't know what the money was being spent on, but they would have known how much).

The economy *was* in bad shape -- and in Tolwyn's mind, the best way to avoid dealing with the economy was to fight a war... since no one worries about how much money they're spending until afterwards.

(The Lances, of course, were an offshoot of the Excalibur program... a natural evolution, and probably financed as such).

That certainly is a point. In fact, post-September 11th, it's rather interesting to see how easily Blair and Maniac dismissed the deaths of 3000 people on that station. Though that's probably because they were used to much worse during the war.
Yet, on the other hand, one wonders how willing the west would be to ignore the Afghan point of view if Afghanistan was, say, Canada. I think that most Americans would be at least a bit suspicious of what appeared to be a Canadian attempt to wipe them out. Certainly, when Sept 11th happened, you didn't see US senators proclaiming that "No, it's worse! The Canadian Militia is behind it!"

Didn't you see Canadian Bacon <G>? But Confed and the Border Worlds have no particular love for eachother -- the fact that senators are daming the Border Worlds with so little proof is evidence that they're in a position more akin to a country-we-don't-like. (And, of course, that they use them as a dumping ground and so forth... and everyone seems to look down on the Border Worlds -- the bartender in the intro wouldn't take BW money, Paulsen spoke of how horrible he thought they war... and so on).

Yes, Blair & co. do not exist - but in at least some scenarios, Eisen is around and clearly somebody at least had believed him. People who believe that the BW is not behind the attacks on civilian convoys are equally unlikely to believe that it's behind a bio-weapon attack. This is not, as you point out, the view of the masses - but the people who helped Eisen are certainly high enough in Confed HQ to be able to get an internal inquiry going. Actually, it would be interesting to see what Eisen had done had Blair failed - surrendering the Mt St Helens wouldn't have been much of an option, since everybody onboard would have faced the firing squad.

Eisen was at the senate for Blair's speech -- it's mentioned in the novel.

Yes - which is why I think that his willingness to lend fighters to the BW has such significance. He certainly wasn't especially interested in lending fighters to Confed in FA, so why would he lend them to the BW, unless he understood that the conflict would affect him sooner or later?

I just don't see the correlation between providing fighters and sacraficing his entire nation to defend the Border Worlds... the US provides Israel with F-16s, but we're certainly not interested in fighting their war.
 
Originally posted by Quarto
That certainly is a point. In fact, post-September 11th, it's rather interesting to see how easily Blair and Maniac dismissed the deaths of 3000 people on that station. Though that's probably because they were used to much worse during the war.
Yet, on the other hand, one wonders how willing the west would be to ignore the Afghan point of view if Afghanistan was, say, Canada. I think that most Americans would be at least a bit suspicious of what appeared to be a Canadian attempt to wipe them out. Certainly, when Sept 11th happened, you didn't see US senators proclaiming that "No, it's worse! The Canadian Militia is behind it!" :)

Don't say 'Canadian Militia'!
Call them 'Northern Eco-Terrorists', and then demand that the Canadian government expel the local version of the Green Party.
 
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
The fact that there *was* a Battle of Terra more or less proves Vakka wrong, though -- the Kilrathi war-based industry with less people/resources/technology was eventually able to produce a superior force capable of once again driving the war to the Confederation.
Possibly... alternatively, it merely proves that the Kilrathi war-based society was able to continually inflict sufficient losses on Confed to maintain the superiority of their own forces... and still gradually losing this superiority because of Confed's economy shifting into high gear. In '34, it was the Kilrathi that could attack at liberty - and as late as the '40s, they were still always on the offensive. Just the fact, then, that by '67 Confed had reached the point where they were the ones crippling the enemy's supply lines instead of the opposite - what do we attribute that to, if not a gradual but constant shift in the balance? In '34, the loss of a fleet was an almost unrecoverable disaster... and in '67, the loss of the 6th Fleet, while resulting in the retreat from Deneb, did not stop Confed from launching a new offensive within months.
None of this really proves much, I know. One could just as easily attribute all of that to people like Blair and Tolwyn; and yet...

The economy *was* in bad shape -- and in Tolwyn's mind, the best way to avoid dealing with the economy was to fight a war... since no one worries about how much money they're spending until afterwards.
And so we return to Tolwyn's mind :). I'm not an economist, but Tolwyn's line of thinking just doesn't seem to be logical. You always hear about countries devastated by war, but you never hear about countries that were able to overcome economic problems by war. The closest to the latter would be the US in WWI - but they were able to prosper because they'd been neutral almost until the end, not because they got involved.

Didn't you see Canadian Bacon <G>? But Confed and the Border Worlds have no particular love for eachother -- the fact that senators are daming the Border Worlds with so little proof is evidence that they're in a position more akin to a country-we-don't-like. (And, of course, that they use them as a dumping ground and so forth... and everyone seems to look down on the Border Worlds -- the bartender in the intro wouldn't take BW money, Paulsen spoke of how horrible he thought they war... and so on).
Mmm, all very good points, yet I wonder if this is really the view of the masses, or just of the few people for whom it is convenient. After all, this view seems to have been totally abandoned after the BW 'victory', which could mean that it's not really as widely believed as it seems. After all, if, during the first weeks of the bombing in Afghanistan it had suddenly been revealed that it was some evil faction in the CIA that had been responsible for the WTC crashes... would the average American support such levels of friendships between the two countries as we saw in WCP between the BW and Confed?

I just don't see the correlation between providing fighters and sacraficing his entire nation to defend the Border Worlds... the US provides Israel with F-16s, but we're certainly not interested in fighting their war.
Well, that's probably not the best example :). The US provides Israel with so much military aid that they might as well be fighting their war. But that's besides the point. As you've said, providing any such aid at all goes against Kruger's character. In this case, Kruger knows that sooner or later, Confed will realise that he's been providing the BW with material aid, resulting in much worsened relations... and Confed-Landreich relations couldn't really get much worse, given that he'd already witnessed one Confed attempt to get the Landreich destroyed (of course, that was using the Kilrathi as a proxy). All of which comes down to the fact that Kruger is already risking war just by sending fighters, and he knows it - is he, then, merely ignoring the risk?

There is, however, the other side that I'm surprised you haven't mentioned, and which makes me wonder - Kruger's relationship with Confed was always bad, but he and Tolwyn always got along well. Would have been interesting to see how that would affect things later.
 
Originally posted by Quarto

And so we return to Tolwyn's mind :). I'm not an economist, but Tolwyn's line of thinking just doesn't seem to be logical. You always hear about countries devastated by war, but you never hear about countries that were able to overcome economic problems by war. The closest to the latter would be the US in WWI - but they were able to prosper because they'd been neutral almost until the end, not because they got involved.



Actually, WWII would be a prime example of it. (For the US) After all, it was just what we needed to break out of the Depression, and we did well after the war as well. (Excluding the whole oil crisis and stuff later)

In that respect, Tolwyn wasn't really that far off. Economies always do well during war, and if you can transfer those jobs well enough, they do well after too. Problem was, Confed had been fighting for so long, I think they forgot how to transfer effectively.
 
Originally posted by Skyfire


Actually, WWII would be a prime example of it. (For the US) After all, it was just what we needed to break out of the Depression, and we did well after the war as well. (Excluding the whole oil crisis and stuff later)

In that respect, Tolwyn wasn't really that far off. Economies always do well during war, and if you can transfer those jobs well enough, they do well after too. Problem was, Confed had been fighting for so long, I think they forgot how to transfer effectively.

Not entirely true.
A short war ('short' being a relative term that varies from country to country and the scope of the war) can be a good way to stimulate an economy as the government puts cash into the economy. The longer the war lasts, however, the less the benefits that arise out of it. War redirects (and destroys) resources that could go toward better use, and this causes the eventual decline of the economy. So World War 2 was good for the US (it helped that nothing larger than a ballon bomb ever reached US soil), but if the war had gone on for another 5 years, things might not have been so rosy.
 
Originally posted by Frosty

No, economies do well after winning really long wars.

You sure about that? What about Louis XIV's long fight to expand France? That combined with building Versailles bankrupt the treasury. The aftermath of the World Wars left nations with huge debts. The Cold War, especially after we fed the Soviets the 'Star Wars' disinformation, left the USSR bankrupt, and the government collapsed in '91.

Economies do well following good legislation and leadership once wars have ended, not from wars themselves.;)
 
Economies do well if you fight wars (create lots of jobs in the defense sector) BUT:

1. You are able to keep your country from actually being attacked (resulting in death, widespread infrastructure destruction) and

2. You are able to keep from losing too many productive members of society (kill off all your young men, that can depress your economy something awful).

Remember that the primary combatants of WWI failed to observe those two conditions above and managed to wreck their economies and wind up in debt to the tune of billions of dollars. In fact, three (Ottoman, Russian, German) empires wrecked themselves so thoroughly that they collapsed. A war benefiting an economy is usually the exception, not the rule.

Respectfully,

Brian P.
 
Originally posted by pendell
Economies do well if you fight wars (create lots of jobs in the defense sector) BUT:

1. You are able to keep your country from actually being attacked (resulting in death, widespread infrastructure destruction) and

2. You are able to keep from losing too many productive members of society (kill off all your young men, that can depress your economy something awful).

Remember that the primary combatants of WWI failed to observe those two conditions above and managed to wreck their economies and wind up in debt to the tune of billions of dollars. In fact, three (Ottoman, Russian, German) empires wrecked themselves so thoroughly that they collapsed. A war benefiting an economy is usually the exception, not the rule.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I definitely agree, but it sure is a big risk, though! Whew!:eek:
 
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