Whats the difference between being a Wing Commander and CAG?

ck9791

Rear Admiral
Recently i picked up the novels on ebay and i have been reading through them. I am confused about the difference between being a Wing Commander of a carrier or its CAG? Or are the two the same thing.

The reason i ask is because in all the games before prophecy, as well as the books, you never hear the term CAG. In the books, im thinking of the novels for WC3 and WC4, Colonel Blair is refered to as the carrier's wing commander. Which seems to mean that he is in command of the carriers entire flight wing and can give orders to all the squadrons on board.

However in prophecy, Patricia Drake is the ships CAG. I know that CAG is an actual naval term and is in use with the US Navy, but i was wondering if the two are in fact referring to the same position. If someone could shed some light on this matter i would appreciate it.
 
Right.. CAG is navy. Patricia Drake is a Confed Navy commander. If you go back to WC3, Blair is a Confed Space Forces colonel. I'm not up to date on current air force ranks and positions, but I do believe I've heard CNN talking to Royal British Air Force Wing Commanders. So that lays the foundation there for your answer. LOAF might be able to go into further detail on the Midway showing us the first explicit example of a Confed carrier having multiple wings.. and therefore each having its own colonel-grade Wing Commander (there is evidence that Black Widows is an entire wing under the colonel Hawk, with Maniac being promoted to one of its subsquadron leaders mid way and all) and CAG Drake over all wings.
 
Ok i think i understand now. Most of the previous carriers only had one wing which consisted of a number of squadrons. However the Midway has more than one wing.
 
Such a simple question... be nice if it had a simple answer eh?

Actually this is a very complacated issue, mainly due to the fact of there being almost no consistency between the various games & novels of the WC universe.

WC1 had a very simple, logical, realistic system for names and fighter orginization... all the fighters on the Claw were adminastratively assigned to Squadrons, all the fighters in a squadron were of the same class (all hornets in the killer bees squadron, all raptors in er.. whatever the heavy fighter squadron was called, I cant recall the name off the top of my head, and so on). Each squadron was commanded by an officer called the 'Squadron Commander', and all of the squadrons were under the general command of Col. Haylcon, although we're never told his actual title in the game, for now i'll just call him the 'Fighter Group Commander'.

Now squadrons rarely fight as one in combat however, for actual missions fighters are orginized in "wing"s (alpha wing, beta wing, etc.), a wing is usually 2-4 fighters (in the actual wc1 game almost always 2, due mainly to the limits of the game engine and computer hardware of the time), and the leader of the wing, is called the 'Wing Commander' (ie. YOU, the player), which is where the game gets its name.

In most modern western militarys, these are actually called "flight"s, but from a marketing perspective, 'Flight Commander' just doesnt have the same ring to it as 'Wing Commander' does. :D


The confusion arizes in the later games in the series, and especally in Forstchen's novels. In the WC3N for example Blair is called the Victory's 'Wing Commander', because thats the name of the game/book after all, and calling the lead character of a book named "Wing Commander", something like "CAG" or "Group Commander" just wouldnt make much sense would it? lol


Prophecy makes the situation even worse, the Midway is said to carry 3 squadrons of fighters, for a total of 252 fighters... this makes no sense whatsoever, as we know from the previous games squadrons are only a dozen or so fighters... (10-16 according to Forstchen depending on which book you're reading), but according to Prophecy, a single confed squadron is now 84 fighters and of various types and classes... :rolleyes:

Prophecy also makes a number of other squadron related mistakes, giveing command of the Black Widows Squadron to Maniac (takeing it away from Hawk btw, right in front of the man too :eek: ), and then instructing him to support Casey, one of Maniac's own SUBORDINATE pilots, in the mission... Also later grounding Maniac and "his boys" (his squadron, of which Casey is a member of), but then allowing Casey to fly a mission anyway...

Prophecy also introduces the title of "CAG" (Commander, Air Group) to the WC universe, as the leader of all the fighters on the Midway... yet CAG Drake is appearently a NAVY?!? officer, not a Space Force officer as all the other pilots and fighter related personnel are... and a simple Navy Commander at that, which is a JUNIOR (lower ranking) officer to the Space Force Colonels which are her senior pilots, such as Hawk...

Man, did ANYBODY involved in writeing Prophecy know what the hell they were doing? lol


According to tradition, the leader of all the pilots on a carrier is called a "CAG", so Halycon in WC1, Angel in WC2, and Blair in WC3/4, as well as Bear in End Run, SHOULD have been called the "CAG", even though the term isnt actually heard in WC untill Prophecy.

(CAG, Commander Air Group, is a misnomer btw, in the post WW2 U.S. Navy there is no such thing as an "Air Group", all the aircraft on a carrier are organized in a unit called an "Air Wing", but the Air Wing Commanders didnt want to be called "CAW" (who would?), so the term CAG was kept, even though technically speaking there is no longer any such thing. :rolleyes: )


Boy... such a long answer to such a simple question huh? lol :)
 
Originally posted by twiligh81
Prophecy makes the situation even worse, the Midway is said to carry 3 squadrons of fighters, for a total of 252 fighters... this makes no sense whatsoever, as we know from the previous games squadrons are only a dozen or so fighters... (10-16 according to Forstchen depending on which book you're reading), but according to Prophecy, a single confed squadron is now 84 fighters and of various types and classes... :rolleyes:

Which is exactly why the Diamondbacks/Black Widows/Wolfpack are really just wings consisting of about 80 fighters each.

Originally posted by twiligh81
Prophecy also makes a number of other squadron related mistakes, giveing command of the Black Widows Squadron to Maniac (takeing it away from Hawk btw, right in front of the man too :eek: ), and then instructing him to support Casey, one of Maniac's own SUBORDINATE pilots, in the mission... Also later grounding Maniac and "his boys" (his squadron, of which Casey is a member of), but then allowing Casey to fly a mission anyway...

All this again makes sense if you know Hawk's the Wing Commander of the Black Widows, Maniac is being promoted to Squadron Commander of one of the Squadrons in the Black Widows, and Casey is in yet another Squadron within.

The Navy and Space Forces are much more integrated in WC than in the US military today. Obviously of biggest note, Blair has gone from Colonel to Commodore. Commander Drake was quite a distinguished space forces pilot under the callsign Princess if I recall correctly, but I don't have my reference materials handy at the moment.
 
simple explination. most carriers just have one wing, with the OIC (officer in charge) having the title and position of 'wing commander'. the midway has 3 wings, commanded by 3 wing commanders, with the CAG being in charge of the 'air group', which is made up of those 3 wings

Originally posted by ChrisReid
Obviously of biggest note, Blair has gone from Colonel to Commodore. Commander Drake was quite a distinguished space forces pilot under the callsign Princess if I recall correctly, but I don't have my reference materials handy at the moment.

with blair, he transferred his commission over to the navy to head up the midway program, which would have made him a captain, and then he got promoted. as for drake, in the WCP guide, it says she flew with that callsign, but nothing about being distinguished, other than as a professional trainer and staff officer. she only did one combat tour, bout 3 months before the end of the war
 
Militaries seem to like organizing things in groups of four, and Confed is no exception. In the American military, for example, you have four platoons making a company, etc. In Confed we see four fighters making a flight (in WCP/SO; the WC3/4 novels agree with this), four flights making a squadron, and (usually) four squadrons making a wing (which normally gives 60-80 ships per wing). Earlier fleet carriers such as the Bengal, Concordia, and Confederation classes only carried 100-150 fighters, so they rarely had multiple wings (one large wing instead of two smaller ones), but the newer Vesuvius and Midway-class carriers were capable of handling three or four wings.
 
*sighs* I think you guys are missing my point...

Orig by ChrisReid:
"Which is exactly why the Diamondbacks/Black Widows/Wolfpack are really just wings consisting of about 80 fighters each."

I agree that its likely what the makers of Prophecy MEANT, is that there are 3 "fighter groups" (or 'wing's according to the novels, see below), on the Midway, each made of up a number of individual Squadrons, of which the Diamondbacks/Black Widows/Wolfpack SQUADRONS are apart of, but the game doesnt ACTUALLY SAY this does it? If taken LITERALLY, the description of the Midways fighter complement given in Prophecy is as I said before, 3 Squadrons of 84 fighters each. And I also explained how inherently wrong this is, I was simply useing it as an EXAMPLE of how the orginazation of fighter wings/squadrons/groups is not consistant between the various WC games and novels.


Orig by ChrisReid:
"All this again makes sense if you know Hawk's the Wing Commander of the Black Widows, Maniac is being promoted to Squadron Commander of one of the Squadrons in the Black Widows, and Casey is in yet another Squadron within."

And again it does not make sense, the CAG says "Maniac... you are now in command of the BLACK WIDOWS SQUADRON..." (my emphasis), not "Maniac... you are now in command of A (unnamed) squadron in the BLACK WIDOWS WING (group, whatever...), again I was simply useing this as an EXAMPLE of how screwed up the fighter orginization as LITERALLY depicted in Prophecy is.


Now, back to my original point, the leader of all the fighters on a carrier is (to my recollection) ONLY called a "Wing Commander" in Forstchen's NOVELS, in the GAMES (specifically WC1 and Prophecy), the title of "Wing Commander" refers ONLY to the leader of a MISSION wing... the ONLY time in the GAMES that we hear an actual title (again as far I recall) for the commander of all the fighters on the carrier is in Prophecy, where she is called the "CAG".


So as to weither the leader of a carriers fighter complement, is called a "Wing Commander" or a "CAG" depends on which source of information you choose to believe, the games, or Forstchen's novels...

As for myself, sense WC is above all else, a computer game series, I consider the games to be the highest level of "cannon", in cases of contradictions between a game in the series and a manual/novel/movie/whatever, then most likely the game is correct and the manual/novel/movie/whatever is wrong.

But thats just me ;)
 
Hmm... actually I noticed something... i'm playing through WC2 again... and WC2 adds yet another title for the leader of a carriers fighter complement... on the door to Angel's office, it says "Commander Flight Group"... CFG I guess... tho somehow i doubt the commanders will like this any more then they liked "CAW"... :D
 
Originally posted by ChrisReid
I'm not up to date on current air force ranks and positions, but I do believe I've heard CNN talking to Royal British Air Force Wing Commanders.

In the RAF Wing Commander a rank that is equal to Lieuteant Colonel in the USAF.

RAF Officer Ranks are:

Marshal of the RAF
Air Chief Marshal
Air Marshal
Air Vice Marshal
Air Commodore
Group Captain
Wing Commander
Squadron Leader
Flight Lieutenant
Flying Officer
Pilot Officer
 
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