What's the deal about Downtown?

[Expendable]

What's the story on the pilot, callsign "Downtown", who flew off the Concordia during Blair's early days aboard her?

Because, if Hobbes was a memory-overlay Kilrathi noble and faux defector, why would he save the human child that would become Downtown? I would guess that Hobbes was overlaid not that many years before his defection, and from the circumstancial evidence in WC2, Downtown must have been 7 tops. So, why did Hobbes do it?

And, for that matter, how did Downtown even get back into the Confederation from whatever Kilrathi world he was a slave on? It's not like Hobbes brought Downtown along on the Ras Nik'rah when he defected.

He perplexes me. Any ideas?

 

[WildCat]

Well, I would have thought that "real" Hobbes was quite a sympathetic Kilrathi anyway and that's why he was chosen for the overlay. After his betrayal he seems quite regretful that he has to betray Blair in the video message.

 

[Quarto]

Presumably, Downtown was on Ghorah Khar when Hobbes defected (though it's not clear whether he was rescued before the defection, or afterwards during the lead-up to the rebellion), and was able to get back to the Confederation when Ghorah Khar joined it.

As for Hobbes, I still think it makes more sense to believe that it is his WC3 traitor personality that was the overlay, and not the WC2 personality. It's all very strange anyway - given that Thrakhath had no way of knowing that Hobbes would be ordered to defect to the humans (and tried to stop this in any case), it seems as though the overlay was originally conceived to infiltrate the rebels. And apparently, Thrakhath was so taken aback by the way things turned out, it wasn't until after FA (or at least his meeting with Hobbes in SO1) that it even occured to him that Hobbes was even worth keeping alive for future use - after all, the Kilrathi obviously did not have orders to not kill Hobbes in WC2.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

As for Hobbes, I still think it makes more sense to believe that it is his WC3 traitor personality that was the overlay, and not the WC2 personality.

Eh, the "Hobbes we knew was the real one!" is a romantic notion of sorts, but it's not particularly reasonable (it's the exact opposite of what he tells us)... and it's more or less an emotional "cheat" (I wasn't betrayed! Everything changed!).

It's all very strange anyway - given that Thrakhath had no way of knowing that Hobbes would be ordered to defect to the humans (and tried to stop this in any case), it seems as though the overlay was originally conceived to infiltrate the rebels.

I think the idea of infiltrating the rebellion is reasonable... though it certainly would not be difficult to believe that Thrakhath had also arranged the defection. Just assume Hassa isn't really a sympathetic character - Thrakhath has certainly show a high degree of control over the priestesses in other instances, to the point of deciding himself where the Sivar ceremony will be held.

(Freedom Flight really does more to support the overlay concept than anything... what with Ralgha being accused of treason by the local police only to have the Crown Prince show up to free him...)

And apparently, Thrakhath was so taken aback by the way things turned out, it wasn't until after FA (or at least his meeting with Hobbes in SO1) that it even occured to him that Hobbes was even worth keeping alive for future use - after all, the Kilrathi obviously did not have orders to not kill Hobbes in WC2.

You mean the meeting with Hobbes in SO1 where Thrakhath escaped under dubious circumstances and without killing Ralgha?

 

[Dundradal]

Thrakhath wasn't always such a dumb bastard, definately cocky, but he knew when to play certain hands.

 

[Delance]

I think that Hobbes *choose* to betray Confed. Yeah, identity overlay and everything, in the end, it's a matter of choice. Maybe he was not particular sympathetic to the Emperor or Thrakkath, and could even be persuaded, as many other Kilrathi, that they should defeat the emperor and end the war. After all, a very large amount of Kilrathi joined forces with Confed. Whole systems, and lots of ships.

But to destroy Kilrah? That’s a little different. Even without the experiment, it would be reasonable for Hobbes to do what he could to prevent the destruction of his homeworld.

It’s also clear Thrakkath did not have any control of Hobbes was doing. The rebellion of Ghora Khar was definitely not planned, since he lost his stealth fighters as a plot device. But the SO1 escape is really suspicious.

 

[Quarto]

Eh, the "Hobbes we knew was the real one!" is a romantic notion of sorts, but it's not particularly reasonable (it's the exact opposite of what he tells us)... and it's more or less an emotional "cheat" (I wasn't betrayed! Everything changed!).

Oh, definitely - I certainly wouldn't bother making this argument if I didn't find it more appealing than the standard explanation. Still I don't think there's anything that would conclusively disprove this idea - after all, the only explanation we've ever had about the whole thing comes from the one person who has no way of knowing whether he's lying or telling the truth.

I think the idea of infiltrating the rebellion is reasonable... though it certainly would not be difficult to believe that Thrakhath had also arranged the defection. Just assume Hassa isn't really a sympathetic character - Thrakhath has certainly show a high degree of control over the priestesses in other instances, to the point of deciding himself where the Sivar ceremony will be held.

Yeah, but the rebellion on Ghorah Khar was huge setback for Thrakhath - he was, after all, convinced that the stealth fighters being built on Ghorah Khar would soon win the war. Considering this, he would have probably been more interested in destroying the rebels than in inflitrating the humans (which he had already done at this point anyway, through the Mandarins).

(Freedom Flight really does more to support the overlay concept than anything... what with Ralgha being accused of treason by the local police only to have the Crown Prince show up to free him...)

...After verifying that the pro-human overlay was working, or after implanting an overlay that could be triggered to make him loyal?

You mean the meeting with Hobbes in SO1 where Thrakhath escaped under dubious circumstances and without killing Ralgha?

Yep, that's the one .

(for the record, I know that this reverse-overlay theory is almost certainly not what Origin intended, but this shouldn't stop us from debating how the canon can be interpreted in a situation where multiple interpretations can work)

 

[psych]

Now that I think of it (after reading the first post), I'm surprised that Jesse Jackson and the NAACP hasn't protested Origin yet, after all WC portrays two black people as slaves.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Wing Commander does like to kill off its minorities.

 

[overmortal]

We've seen two black people and three asians bite the dust (reckoning this just off the top of my head, observing minorities). Oh, and, according to the books, one latino.

Downtown
Cobra
Bossman
Spirit
Vagabond
Vaquero

But WC has killed off dozens of white people, and has had at least two black people survive, that I can think of. Eisen (until J. Bernard died in RL) and O'Hearn.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Eh, just follow the 'main' cast through each game... it always starts of ethnically diverse, and leaves you with a white guy or two. (G)

 

[McGruff]

I always thought the animated Tolwyn was black, then he became Malcolm McDowell.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Nope, he's been white (and British) since he was first 'seen' in WC2.

 

[Chernikov]

helluva tan for a brit.

 

[Expendable]

In his WC2 version?

 

[DyNaMiX]

I like to think that Hobbes' personality was something created over a long time since his birth. Hence why Thrakath appeared in Freedom Flight (just started reading) to make sure that his toy was not killed since no other Kilrathi would be aware of Hobbes' future. Only those pilots (as we see in the Wing Commander 3 novel) that are ordered not to shoot him down for obvious reasons.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Oh, definitely - I certainly wouldn't bother making this argument if I didn't find it more appealing than the standard explanation. Still I don't think there's anything that would conclusively disprove this idea - after all, the only explanation we've ever had about the whole thing comes from the one person who has no way of knowing whether he's lying or telling the truth.

Mmm, I just don't see it - we see enough "afterwards" references to Hobbes' personality being an overlay (in False Colors and the Wing IV novel) in which it seems to be accepted as fact. Balanced with no evidence anywhere that "Ralgha" was fake and Hobbes wasn't, I have trouble supporting the idea...

Heck, using the same set of claims ('the evidence against it might not be right!'), you can claim pretty much anything you want about anything at all.

...After verifying that the pro-human overlay was working, or after implanting an overlay that could be triggered to make him loyal?

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Freedom Flight starts with Ralgha being accused of treason and interrogated by a local government official on Ghorah Khar. Thrakhath shows up, claims the accusation is without merit and frees Ralgha to go on his way. I'm sure it was initially written as "Hah-hah, Thrakhath chose to free the guy who betrays him!"... but it seems to make more sense now, knowing that Ralgha was one of Thrakhath's secret project (whatever his mission may have been).