WC2/WC3 Transition

T

TheRedDuke

Spaceman
No doubt this has been discussed before, although I wasn't able to find a thread that discussed this topic specifically. I was curious about the transition of fighters and bombers from WC2/End Run/FA to WC3. How was it that Confed was able to bring so many new craft online in as short a time span as they did (late 2668-2670), given the climate of the war at the time? Confed was still being out-produced by the Empire, its fleet and construction yards were smashed during the Sirius/Terra actions in 2668, and yet the worn-down TCS Victory was equipped with the finest new fighters not a year later; not a Rapier, Broadsword or Ferret to be found. This strikes me as very impractical. I would think that the Confederation, in its efforts to keep the war from coming home again, would have spent more resources in mass-producing existing ships (as I'm sure some production facilities were still intact, such as Jupiter) rather than build or modify facilities and train new personnel to manufacture new classes of craft. To correlate, the US military, despite the development and deployment of the B-1, F-22, F117-A, and the JSF, still use older B-52s, F-15s,16s, and 18s. These 30-year old designs, while modified over the years, are still highly effective weapons, and in many cases are far more cost effective than the newer fighters + bombers.

Of course, I know that with a new game, the production team for WC3 would probably want to introduce new craft/weapons/features etc., but according to canon, is there any explanation for this sudden change in craft?
 
New designs, as they were brought online, were transferred straight to the front and older craft transferred off the front lines. There aren't all that many 'new' weapons IIRC.
 
Simple - they aren't new craft. The Arrow, Hellcat, and Longbow are all from WC1 times, if not prior (they are seen in the WC Academy tv series). By the time of Wing Commander 3, they've been given new armour/shields/weapon systems, but they are indeed old fighters. That is why the Victory, herself an old ship, has those fighters, while the newest fighters would be going to the fleet carriers. The reason the Thunderbolt and Excalibur (the two newest fighters) are assigned to the Victory is because that ship is going to be central to Tolwyn's plans for the Behemoth.

As for where all the other ships have gone, it's a big universe. Just because we don't see a Sabre or Ferret in the missions Blair flies, doesn't mean that they've all just disappeared.
 
SabreAce said:
Simple - they aren't new craft. The Arrow, Hellcat, and Longbow are all from WC1 times, if not prior (they are seen in the WC Academy tv series). By the time of Wing Commander 3, they've been given new armour/shields/weapon systems, but they are indeed old fighters. That is why the Victory, herself an old ship, has those fighters, while the newest fighters would be going to the fleet carriers. The reason the Thunderbolt and Excalibur (the two newest fighters) are assigned to the Victory is because that ship is going to be central to Tolwyn's plans for the Behemoth.
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The biggest dent to the fact that the Arrow, Hellcat, and Longbow were all fighters before WC1 is the file that Wedge extracted from the WC3 source code. The thread is here

But that aside, it seems that the general consensus for the Hellcat in Academy was that it was indeed one of the old Wildcats. Also, the Arrow was used as a personnel transports, not as a fighter (not till Armada), and the Longbow was also seen as a Search and Rescue shuttle, not as a bomber. And then later on, modified and changed into a type of fighter.
 
psych said:
But that aside, it seems that the general consensus for the Hellcat in Academy was that it was indeed one of the old Wildcats. Also, the Arrow was used as a personnel transports, not as a fighter (not till Armada), and the Longbow was also seen as a Search and Rescue shuttle, not as a bomber. And then later on, modified and changed into a type of fighter.
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That all seems very plausible, and now that you mention it, I do remember the "Hellcat" now from WCA. So given the situation at the time, I.E. Confed was losing the war, the craft were not neccecarily new designs, but rather reconfigured and brought up as replacements for the craft lost at Sirius/Terra? If that's the case, then that would be very efficient/economical.

I def agree with you SabreAce - looking only at the game/novel WC3 is tunnel vision to some degree - we really don't know a whole lot about what's going on outside the Victory's battle group (aside from the Behemoth and Temblor projects, of course).
 
Interesting stuff Wedge found there. Of course, if we go by that file, WC3 didn't happen in 2669 (since the Excal and Longbow entered in the 2670s, according to the file). By that same token, if we stick by 2669 as the canon date for WC3, and the dates in the file are wrong for those two fighters, who's to say they're not wrong for the others as well.

About the Hellcat - I've not seen all the episodes of Academy, but did they show up anywhere besides the simulator (as in Red & Blue)? Just curious as to if it could be early model Hellcats that pilots are being trained in via sim, for when the fighter is ready for service.
 
I think it's almost safe to say that the ship in WCA is a wildcat. Just like in WW2 the wildcat and hellcat look fairly similar but have very different performance characteristics.
 
I don't believe the Wildcat/Hellcat is in any other scene than the simulation in Red and Blue.

Besides the source code, is the 2370's date on the Excalibur and Longbow mentioned in any other literature?
 
The 70's date is wrong, of course. In that thread I posted, I mentioned something how the dialogue from False Colors had taken place 5 years after the Battle of Earth when Max Kruger "took the fleet to Terra in '66". So from a False Colors point of view, the end of the War didn't come till like 4 years later, so thoeretically, that was plenty of time for the WC3 fighters/weapons to come on.

Main catch though, the False Colors dating was wrong. LOAF explained about that misunderstanding in another post in that thread.
 
TheRedDuke said:
I don't believe the Wildcat/Hellcat is in any other scene than the simulation in Red and Blue.
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Though still in Red and Blue, there is a Hellcat (or Wildcat - whichever you prefer) statue at the Academy. Even though I like the explanation that the fighters in the Sim are Wildcats, there are a few factors to consider. Why would the Academy train their new Cadets on fighters that they will never fly? Also, we see an Academy simulator in the WCA game with a 'not-yet production' Wraith. Could this sim in WCATV be training the cadets on the next hot medium fighter (perhaps one possible replacement for the aging Scimitar) as the sim from WCA did? If this is the case, why is there a statue of it at the Academy (something that would be more akin to a Wildcat)? :) Lots of questions . . . answers open to personal interpretation ;)

C-ya
 
Well, I am unsure about that random "Hellcat", but I can offer an explanation on the Wraith.

Let us assume that the Wraith, although it is not yet in production, will be by the time the cadets who practice on the simulator graduate from the Academy. Thus, since they have already familiarized themself with a simulated Wraith, the learning curve will be much lower than if said cadet had never seen a Wraith in his life and had never flown one in simulation. Also, said cadet will only probably have to go through familiarization or a refresher course, which saves time for him to get into a combat unit.

Well, thats about all I can think of.
 
that's a possibility since in AS they talk about such things because when tolwyn is thrown into a wildcat he says he hasn't finished his sim hours yet and has yet to set foot into a real wildcat
 
hmm, maybe they chose a hell/wildcat over others because getting one cast was really, really simple? (design/production on something like the scim would be harsh, and much more vulnerable to plebes)
 
The statute may have been an old one too. The statue was created early in the war or before it, when the Wildcats were still arround.
 
Maybe its just late/early but . . .
Expendable said:
Let us assume that the Wraith, although it is not yet in production, will be by the time the cadets who practice on the simulator graduate from the Academy. Thus, since they have already familiarized themself with a simulated Wraith, the learning curve will be much lower than if said cadet had never seen a Wraith in his life and had never flown one in simulation. Also, said cadet will only probably have to go through familiarization or a refresher course, which saves time for him to get into a combat unit.
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Meson said:
The statute may have been an old one too. The statue was created early in the war or before it, when the Wildcats were still arround.
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Aren't those what I said, just in alot more words? ;) Actually it pretty much says as much about the Wraith in the Academy manual. My musings were whether or not this was a possible score for the 'WCATV has Hellcats' column.
As for the statue, I'll go back over some points. Why would you have a statue of a yet to be produced fighter at the Academy? Either the statue is ahead of its time and brand spanking new (add one to the Hellcat column) or its really old and represents the fighter the Academy cadets/graduates trained/flew on/with for years (add one to the Wildcat column).
Go back to the argument of why would Confed train their pilots on a fighter that theywould never see (add one to the Hellcat column)? Add in the fact that we know Confed trains pilots on the tech that is up and coming (from WCA the game), you could add another point to the Hellcat column.
You could argue that the fighters seen in Red and Blue only have 2 guns to the Hellcats 4, but adding a second set of guns later in the fighter's life (with advancements in energy weapon tech) isn't that far of a stretch.
Another thought is why would Confed give 2 contracts to 2 medium fighters at the same time (Rapier and Hellcat), unless at the time the Hellcat wasn't classified as a medium. Otherwise, theres a mark in the Wildcat column.
I can't think of any more comparisons right now. If anyone else does, chime in.
Even though I want them to be Wildcats, I've got to lean towards them being 'advanced' Hellcats and the statue being brand new. I think the biggest peice of evidence for me is their presence in the simulator. I can't think of a good reason to train on a fighter that is never gonna be flown by your pilots.

C-ya
 
Even though the wildcat was pretty ancient at the outset of the war, it still served for the first few years as they mention in AS that the upgraded wildcat won't be ready for a few years because of Senator Moore's bullshit antics about where to build the upgrade facility. Also, it's replacement the Corsair would still take a while to reach the lines.

I can't remember 100% for sure but I want to say AS says something about the number of guns the wildcat has (i think it was 2?) and considering that the academy is an ancient terran institution, it wouldn't surprise me if the statue was a wildcat, since it had been a frontline fighter for quite a long time. I can't see an academy building a statue to a fighter that has yet to see active service.
 
First i'm a new member and my english is very bad.
Back to the topic, is it possible that the "Hellcat" from WCA TV was the Corsair. The corsair was to replace the wildcat. In every flight school or military office are at least one statue of famous fighters from the past or at present in service. In WC2 was a Rapier-poster in Towlyn's office.
In WC are already two fighters from the same class in service: Stiletto light fighter (2669 privateer) and Arrow light fighter (2669 WC3)
The Stilleto is backwater systems (like Gemini) on use and the Arrow on the front line. I think it is possible that the Rapier are on the front line and the Hellcat in unimportant systems.
Another question: Is the Hellcat from WC3 a different version than in the WC3 novel (shorter range) ?
 
The biggest dent to the fact that the Arrow, Hellcat, and Longbow were all fighters before WC1 is the file that Wedge extracted from the WC3 source code. The thread is here
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I don't think that's really a dent - something that wasn't actually used in WC3 isn't really enough to contradict seeing the various fighters on screen in Academy (not to mention the fact that had that data appeared in Wing 3, it'd be pretty darned questionable given the dates...).

As for the statue, I'll go back over some points. Why would you have a statue of a yet to be produced fighter at the Academy? Either the statue is ahead of its time and brand spanking new (add one to the Hellcat column) or its really old and represents the fighter the Academy cadets/graduates trained/flew on/with for years (add one to the Wildcat column).
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Alternatively, it could be a recent memorial for a test pilot - and thus it features a cutting edge ship. There's no absolute answer... I like the Wildcat explanation, but it won't ever be more than that. WCA, afterall, was developed before Action Stations was written... so they can't have *intended* it to be a Wildcat.

Even though I want them to be Wildcats, I've got to lean towards them being 'advanced' Hellcats and the statue being brand new. I think the biggest peice of evidence for me is their presence in the simulator. I can't think of a good reason to train on a fighter that is never gonna be flown by your pilots.
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Aren't pilots generally trained on aircraft other than the ones they fly in combat? World War II wasn't fought with T-6ses, afterall. :)

Another question: Is the Hellcat from WC3 a different version than in the WC3 novel (shorter range) ?
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IIRC, the WC3 novel has both 'point defense' and patrol version Hellcats in it.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
Aren't pilots generally trained on aircraft other than the ones they fly in combat? World War II wasn't fought with T-6ses, afterall. :)
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True, but thats when they are learning to fly. A simpler interface for training purposes. If the cadets were 'ready for combat manuevers in real fighters', I'd have assumed that they had graduated up from basic fighters and are training on the fighters they would be actually be flying. :)

C-ya
 
True enough - it's similar to how a fighter pilot in WWII would go from Texans to P-40s to transition training to the P-51 type they'd be flying in combat.
 
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