WC Manuals and Playguides in PDF.
- Thread starter Ghost
- Start date
TCSTigersClaw
Greek Special Forces B' Company "Naoussa" 2007-200
Its Illigal, isnt it ??Thats why.....Im not stupid, but I dont know...I felt right to delete it 
TCSTigersClaw
Greek Special Forces B' Company "Naoussa" 2007-200
.........well.......If I change my mind ,I can still d/l it.....there is no problem ....
http://www.blacklance.org/jetlag/
its somewhere here Ghost
Im illigal now am I ?
http://www.blacklance.org/jetlag/
its somewhere here Ghost
Im illigal now am I ?
TCSTigersClaw
Greek Special Forces B' Company "Naoussa" 2007-200
Maybe it sounds stupid,but I dont want any Pirate or illigal stuff of Wing Commander ......!
I got Pirate copies,DVD rips etc,but not from WingCommander.!
Delance
Victory, you say?
Allow me to explain the legal issue here.
Instructions on how to operate a program or instructions on how to play a game cannot be protected by copyright. Plain and simple.
However, the manuals do have also some material that can be protected, like fiction, pictures, drawings, etc. It doesn't matter if it is out of print.
The major issue here depends on each country’s law. On the US, it could arguably be considered as "Fair Use", even under DMCA. Depends on how you interpret it. If the person has the original, yes, he can download the PDFs for sure. If he does not, then it's not that certain.
When the IDSA (www.idsa.com, the owners of E3) sent cease and desist letters to the Underdogs, they went after both the games and the manuals made available for download. So, making such material available for download can be considered as copyright infringement, in theory. I am not aware of any court ruling on this matter.
What is for certain is that screenshots and instructions can be made available online and copied. Same to small bits of fiction and pictures inside the manual. But if is something more substantial, then there could be some problem. Depends on the amount of copyrighted material, as well as the media. If the media is paper, the protection is far less powerful. DMCA tries to protect more the software itself with its anti-circumvention provisions.
On the specific case of WC manuals, I don’t think there should be any problem. It’s more instruction and only small bits of fiction and graphics here and there.
Instructions on how to operate a program or instructions on how to play a game cannot be protected by copyright. Plain and simple.
However, the manuals do have also some material that can be protected, like fiction, pictures, drawings, etc. It doesn't matter if it is out of print.
The major issue here depends on each country’s law. On the US, it could arguably be considered as "Fair Use", even under DMCA. Depends on how you interpret it. If the person has the original, yes, he can download the PDFs for sure. If he does not, then it's not that certain.
When the IDSA (www.idsa.com, the owners of E3) sent cease and desist letters to the Underdogs, they went after both the games and the manuals made available for download. So, making such material available for download can be considered as copyright infringement, in theory. I am not aware of any court ruling on this matter.
What is for certain is that screenshots and instructions can be made available online and copied. Same to small bits of fiction and pictures inside the manual. But if is something more substantial, then there could be some problem. Depends on the amount of copyrighted material, as well as the media. If the media is paper, the protection is far less powerful. DMCA tries to protect more the software itself with its anti-circumvention provisions.
On the specific case of WC manuals, I don’t think there should be any problem. It’s more instruction and only small bits of fiction and graphics here and there.
TC
SubCrid
A specific set of instructions can be protected under copyright. You can't copy what they say, but that can't stop you from independantly writing your own set of instructions to run the product.
Also, there's nothing in fair use that would allow you to copy manuals, as far as I know. That would be a very stupid clause.
Any copied text that isn't a part of a review, critisism, or similar study of the text would be, technically, counter to copyright, AFAIK. Things like screenshots, excerpts and the like are granted by the game companies because it would be stupid to go and piss off all their customers and it's good advertising.
Game manuals have nothing to do with the DMCA in the US... it's just plain old copyright law, which is more than capable of making it illegal. However, the people at EA and Origin don't appear to care, so I wouldn't worry.
Also, there's nothing in fair use that would allow you to copy manuals, as far as I know. That would be a very stupid clause.
Any copied text that isn't a part of a review, critisism, or similar study of the text would be, technically, counter to copyright, AFAIK. Things like screenshots, excerpts and the like are granted by the game companies because it would be stupid to go and piss off all their customers and it's good advertising.
Game manuals have nothing to do with the DMCA in the US... it's just plain old copyright law, which is more than capable of making it illegal. However, the people at EA and Origin don't appear to care, so I wouldn't worry.
TCSTigersClaw
Greek Special Forces B' Company "Naoussa" 2007-200
But the online End Run is illigal........?Its still online with no problems and its hosted by Blacklance
Delance
Victory, you say?
The ideas on the set of instructions cannot be copyrighted. Sometimes, that is the set of instructions, like a reference card or command list.
You can copy text for a variety of reasons other then review or similar study... Fair use is very open in nature. Private copies are also still protected, even under the DMCA, to some degree.
As for the manuals... Truth is that they are protected, and scanning them and making them available for download could, in theory, be considered illegal. But there are solid arguments on both sides. Copyright laws are not clear on this matter.
One could argue that manuals could only be used with the games that should have them anyway. So if you get a game w/o a manual, then it's OK for you to download it. That, in fact, game companies more often then not don't offer such services at all. If you own a game and the game company don’t give you any access to the manual, then what is to be expected of you? I think it’s only reasonable that you get yourself a copy. And if you have a pirate game, the copy of the manual is the least of your problems.
You are right wen you say that Game manuals on paper are not covered by the DMCA. But if they are on a medium like PDF, they might be. However, you must consider another possibility: if the game has a copy-protection that requires reading the manual to access, and you copy a manual to this end, the copy of the manual can be punished under the DMCA, in theory. This happens because it would be an action that allows you to circumvent a copy-protection.
TC
SubCrid
Darn right... Copyright gives protection to the way something is expressed, not to facts. If something's just a list of facts it's cannot be protected, effectively. This isn't really applicable to Wing Commander's manuals except in the instance of key lists...
At least in the US, which is the law I'm going to look at, as most Chat Zone readers are in the US, I can't see any particular part of fair use that would extend to copying a computer game manual in it's entirety for unlimited distribution. I'll also point out that the DMCA doesn't technically affect fair use at all (except through things like not allowing you to circumvent copy protection to use your fair use rights). There's a clause in the law specifically stating that fair use rights are not modified by the DMCA.
Copying an out of print book for personal use is generally considered legitimate fair use. Providing it for distribution is not.
You just admitted they're protected, but then basically said they aren't. The only time protected items can be distributed without consent from the copyright owner is when it falls under the constructs of fair use. If you can find some precidence in fair use that appears to have any applicability to this, then please point it out.
Companies aren't required to distribute manuals with their products, though. Purchasing an instance of something doesn't automatically entitle you to a manual, if it did there'd be no market for playguides. I have no moral problems with getting yourself a manual somehow (obviously, as I've personally made a number of them available online), but you aren't legally entitled to them.
Ah yes, you're quite correct. I thought you'd been refering to the manuals being protected under the DMCA. It's quite correct that Claw Marks can be seen as a circumvention device under the DMCA.
cff
Kilk'dymga'qith laq Ik'vikvi
I'd say manuals are more. A screenshot is just a snapshot of the game (mostly osed for review purposes). A manual is in most cases a work of art.
I think it is 70 years now. But of course if Baen did allow the PDFification (which I doubt they did) then they gave up their right. Something every copytight holder can do at any time.
Common misconception and propaganda from abandonware sites. Not being in production anymore or not being supported anymore doesn't have any impact on copyright. Ask Microsoft if you can freely copy Win98SE by now! It is neither produced nor supported by them anymore...
You know I start almost feeling like a saint when reading that list?
Actually IMHO WC manuals are a great example of a work of art. At least some of them (WC1 for example. More then half of it is more like a book then like instructions).
Some degree - *laughs*
You are allowed to make a copy, but you may not circumvent our copy protection while doing so. Uhm - yeah...
Not knowing the exact wording of the DMCA as fortunately I don't have to care for that one, the medium should not play any role in the copyright talk.
Aeh - no. A manual and a playguide are two very different things.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Hmm. Actually... I was looking at the Baen website just now. It seems they have this thing called, appropriately enough, the free library. Basically, any Baen author can put up a book of his there, and anybody can download the book for free. Needless to say, nobody puts up all their work - the idea is generally to put up the first book of a series, and hope that the few lost sales for the first book will be counterbalanced by more people buying the rest of the series in general.
So, it seems that if somebody knew how to contact William Forstchen, it would be possible for Forstchen to arrange the free and legal distribution of End Run.
TC
SubCrid
Wow, I assumed everyone knew about that by now...
They also distributed even more e-books on the CD with the hardcover edition of War of Honor, including the entire series of Honor Harrington titles, all of which you are allowed to share with whomever you'd like. They're a very nice company, with authors who are open to interesting ideas.
Delance
Victory, you say?
Originally posted by Quarto
On an amusing sidenote, last year in Poland I came across a Polish edition of one of them Honor Harrington books. Nothing unusual about that, right? Well, this one used End Run's cover art.
I always thought some of that cover arts were more generic sci-fi than WC specifically...
