WC 6 Plans?
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Delance
Victory, you say?
I'm surprised to see such affection for Privateer. You should be, like, 7 when it was released. So I guess you played it some time later. I was about 18, and it was a truly great game. Arguably, the best on it's niche/subgenre.
One thing some other games had and Privateer didn't is scope. The universe is small when compared with Elite. They had a very large number of planets, galatic hyperdrives and stuff - but just one starbase per planet. Now, Frontier had all sorts of problems, but had 1 cool thing: you could land on the planet with the game engine. Instead of a gate you'd just enter the atmosphere and land on a city - very cool. Someone could complain (and do) that Privateer is not Elite because it doesn't have hundreds of different systems, with various races, political systems, and technological levels. One has the Kilrathi, the other has Thargoid Invaders. But Privateer is not trying to be "Elite", so it's not a fair assessment to judge a game for not being something it's not trying to be in the first place. Privateer is great on its own, and it’s limited to the Gemini sector by design. It’s not the game’s “fault” that it doesn’t have lots of system and stuff.
Freelancer is not about "being" Privateer. Privateer is a great game, and so is Freelancer. Like when people complain that Freespace 2 is not a good Wing Commander game.
Freelancer is not Privateer light. Elite isn't Privateer heavy. They are all different games, with some similarities. Each had its specific strenghts.
Eder
Mr. Standoff
That's like saying that arcade racing games and racing simulations have "some similarities". The games in question have more than just similarities, they're different approaches to the same genre.
Elite had that whole epic thing going for it, while Privateer reduced the scope of the game, but made each location and character seem to have more personality. Those are different approaches. I think the idea that Freelancer is "Privateer light" comes from the fact that Freelancer doesn't really have any inovation to its approach of the genre. All inovations are related to the technology, like the mouse interface or the graphics... Those are IMO the only things which set Freelancer apart from all the other games in the genre.
(One could argue that Freelancer's level system is a gameplay-related innovation, but that has always seemed to me as nothing more than a way of limiting the player's freedom and advancement... so in my book it doesn't really count as the kind of innovation I like to see in what's supposed to be a freelancing space combat game.)
If they had brought back (or expanded upon) the atmosphere-flying from Frontier, or allowed the player to have a greater impact upon the game world, or created an economic system which actually allows profit and loss, or allowed yet more freedom of choice when it came to deciding how to make money or how to get a mission done, then it probably wouldn't be considered "Privateer light" by anyone.
As it stands, there's nothing I can do in Freelancer that I can't do in Privateer... even if in Privateer things aren't so in-depth (like faction affiliations), or pretty (like the combat), etc.
What Freelancer does most of the time is actually remove some of the depth found in Privateer and Elite, since all missions bog down to blasting random pilots or random (and just spawned!) space stations, all planets are aligned on a 2D plane, all ships have the same top speed, there are missions you're forced to fly, etc. I mean, combat in Elite was almost as repetitive as this, and definitely not as exciting, but at least the rest of the game more than made up for the streamlined and boring combat encounters. OTOH, in Freelancer it seems like everything has been toned-down, with just about nothing to make up for the losses.
At least, those are *my* humble reasons for classifying Freelancer as a beer-n-pretzel almost-freeform space combat game.
(Feel free to ignore this post, I'm not open to others opinions at all, and I am very incapable of debating
)Oh, BTW, Delance, you mentioned Frontier's numerous problems... have you played the fully patched game? If not, I suggest you try to find it... With all the bugs out of the way, that actually turned into a very enjoyable game. It's the king of the genre for me.
--Eder
Delance
Victory, you say?
But they are the same genre. NFS is a racing game or arcade racing game? That's a long debate.
People complain Freelancer is not realistic because of the control scheme and the nanobots. It's not a correct assessment, you can read more about it here. It’s like saying Privateer is a shooter because you can play it using the keyboard.
The special genre has nothing to do with the realism level of the space flight, but with the freedom the player has. Once you finish the plot missions, you have a lot of freedom in freelancer, and much more possibilities than you have on Elite. Arguably, a 2D top-down game could be made on this same genre.
Elite has just one fighter, and not much of factions. The police will shoot you or not, and that's it. There are very few and rare missions as well.
Freelancer is a space combat sim with freedom. It might not fit your concept for the ideal game of this kind, but it’s not a generic arcade shooter because of that.
As I said before, it’s not right to complain that Freelancer is not Elite or Privateer, because… it’s not supposed to be Elite or Privateer.
Can you choose random missions from all factions on Privateer? No. Does everyone has a name? No. Do people remember you from bars? No. This might sound silly, but this kind of depth is very important on this kind of game.
In Elite there's only 1 space station per system. There's not even anything to align to. The alignment is to make the game easier to play, and there's nothing wrong with it. On the solar system, all planets but pluto are more or less aligned. It's a normal thing.
Except, perhaps, the fact that you can pilot a lot of different ships, and outift them with lots of different weapons from different factions. Or the complex faction rep system. Or the advanced random missions.
Just because it's easy and accessible, doesn't mean it's bad, or simplistic. It's very simple to run an empire on SMAC, Civ3 or MOO3, and those are very complex games.
Eder
Mr. Standoff
Whoa, now you're sounding like you really want to prove *my* point, Delance.
There are few things in this universe which make me go absolutely f'ing nuts. One of them is people talking about realism in space combat games. Please don't bring that into this discussion, there is no room for it here. My "arcade vs simulator" racing game comparison was only an example of different approaches to a genre, as opposed to games that share same approach, but vary in depth or accessibility. I don't know where you got the impression that I was saying Freelancer is an arcade game because it uses mouse control. That's not what I think. I think Freelancer is an arcade game because it is overly simplified, and limits my freedom as much as any SNES platformer did back in the day.
Again, you seem to have misunderstood me, as my point wasn't about how many dimensions the game world has, like it wasn't about the method of control the game uses.
Also, taking away my freedom to screw things up or take different approaches, and giving me 40 extra weapons and 20 extra ships (with 3 slightly different looking versions of each!) doesn't add anything substantial to the genre. An expansion pack to Privateer, Elite, or Open-Ended Space-Sim Wannabe #38 could have done that. This is NOT what sets a game apart from the rest.
Adding 392 teams to a soccer game doesn't make it a better soccer game than the previous one, it just makes it a bigger soccer game.
Install the game.
Forced to accept a mission.
Forced to fly mission.
Freelance flying random missions that feel scripted for a while.
Forced to fly another mission to buy jump drive.
Freelance flying random missions that feel scripted (now in different systems!) for another while.
Forced to blow up Generic Looking Space Station Which Wasn't There Two Minutes Ago #2.
The end.
Free to freelance anywhere, flying any random missions that feel scripted I choose to. Yay. Yay, indeed.
I must stress that it doesn't even feel like you were replying to my post. The only point where you touched the matters I was referring to was when you mentioned the characters having names, and the factions having random missions. Yes, that's what I was referring to... those are some of the things that *might* have set Freelancer apart from the other games in the genre for me... If these innovations didn't look so minor when compared to what was left out... for no apparent reason other than to make the game more accessible than it needed to be.
Gamers who are too lazy to think might like the way Freelancer walks you through the universe by forcing you to fly certain plot missions, or by flashing tutorial-like messages on your screen all the time. I like tutorials, and I like fast learning curves, but it feels like an insult to my intelligence that the game keeps telling me what to do - and preventing me from doing something different - so frequently.
I'm not complaining about Freelancer being easy to get into, I'm complaining about Freelancer being easy to master and getting too boring too soon (apart from MP).
(On a side note, I guess that from now on I shall not say that I'm waiting for the next Elite anymore... I'm waiting for Morrowind in space instead that has to be the most open ended game I've ever played - and it's not hard to get into, either. It's actually simpler than most RPGs. There's a short-and-to-the-point manual, a tutorial, some point-n-click combat, then you're on your own - for real).
--Eder
There are few things in this universe which make me go absolutely f'ing nuts. One of them is people talking about realism in space combat games. Please don't bring that into this discussion, there is no room for it here. My "arcade vs simulator" racing game comparison was only an example of different approaches to a genre, as opposed to games that share same approach, but vary in depth or accessibility. I don't know where you got the impression that I was saying Freelancer is an arcade game because it uses mouse control. That's not what I think. I think Freelancer is an arcade game because it is overly simplified, and limits my freedom as much as any SNES platformer did back in the day.
That's exactly my point.
This is where I disagree with you. I think Freelancer is *very* poor on content, while it obvioulsy surpasses Elite in having better graphics, controls, AI, combat, etc.
Once again, that's exactly my point. It's possible to make a 2D top-down game on this same genre, using either the Elite approach, the Privateer approach, or a different approach altogether.
Again, you seem to have misunderstood me, as my point wasn't about how many dimensions the game world has, like it wasn't about the method of control the game uses.
Again, I disagree. Seems like we've played different Elites here
Disagree. Freelancer has much less freedom than it takes to be classed as an "open-ended" space combat game, IMO.
Correct. And as I said before, I think Freelancer fails to add anything substantial to the genre.
Disagree, once again. Faction missions would have been nice alright, but the rest? People having names or remembering me from bars adds a little to the overall experience, indeed... but it doesn't make up for cutting corners all around the most important gameplay aspects - specially when these characters have such repetitive dialogues and likenesses, that *I* don't remember *THEM*.
Also, taking away my freedom to screw things up or take different approaches, and giving me 40 extra weapons and 20 extra ships (with 3 slightly different looking versions of each!) doesn't add anything substantial to the genre. An expansion pack to Privateer, Elite, or Open-Ended Space-Sim Wannabe #38 could have done that. This is NOT what sets a game apart from the rest.
Adding 392 teams to a soccer game doesn't make it a better soccer game than the previous one, it just makes it a bigger soccer game.
Agreed. You're missing my point completely, once again, though.
Yes, but Freelancer has no such complexity.
Install the game.
Forced to accept a mission.
Forced to fly mission.
Freelance flying random missions that feel scripted for a while.
Forced to fly another mission to buy jump drive.
Freelance flying random missions that feel scripted (now in different systems!) for another while.
Forced to blow up Generic Looking Space Station Which Wasn't There Two Minutes Ago #2.
The end.
Free to freelance anywhere, flying any random missions that feel scripted I choose to. Yay. Yay, indeed.
I must stress that it doesn't even feel like you were replying to my post. The only point where you touched the matters I was referring to was when you mentioned the characters having names, and the factions having random missions. Yes, that's what I was referring to... those are some of the things that *might* have set Freelancer apart from the other games in the genre for me... If these innovations didn't look so minor when compared to what was left out... for no apparent reason other than to make the game more accessible than it needed to be.
Gamers who are too lazy to think might like the way Freelancer walks you through the universe by forcing you to fly certain plot missions, or by flashing tutorial-like messages on your screen all the time. I like tutorials, and I like fast learning curves, but it feels like an insult to my intelligence that the game keeps telling me what to do - and preventing me from doing something different - so frequently.
I'm not complaining about Freelancer being easy to get into, I'm complaining about Freelancer being easy to master and getting too boring too soon (apart from MP).
(On a side note, I guess that from now on I shall not say that I'm waiting for the next Elite anymore... I'm waiting for Morrowind in space instead
that has to be the most open ended game I've ever played - and it's not hard to get into, either. It's actually simpler than most RPGs. There's a short-and-to-the-point manual, a tutorial, some point-n-click combat, then you're on your own - for real). --Eder
Ghost
Emperor
Originally posted by Eder
True, I forgot about that. A welcome addition as well, though I kinda wonder about its usefulness, since I can't capture cargo that I'm supposed to destroy in the random missions. Plus, cargo prices hardly fluctuate in most of the systems
--Eder
Pirate purposes
Me a level 8 guy with a Defender in the Colorado-New York Jumpgate...
Saw a Cryo Rhino...scanned it...woha!!! Alien Organisms!!! Bang, the Rhino is dead, i had 30 AO, sold them in Manhattan (27 because they are perishable) for 1200 approx each one...like 32400 credits!!
Delance
Victory, you say?
Well, let me try to address a few things, Eder, because it's cleaer we agree a lot.
1. Freelancer is a good game on its own. I don't think it's fair to complain that it's not Privateer or not Elite, because it doesn't try to be.
2. You are right that the plot directs the game, especially in the end, but once the plot is over you have complete liberty. And since some systems are very easy ( and some are very, very hard you can choose your own difficulty level. Once you get there, you can have all the free-form gameplay you want.
3. Once you turn the first person view, it looks more like a space sim.
4. Read here for the definition of the Elite game. Freelancer fits that description in some ways. "Corporate systems" are easy (Liberty), while unruly anarchies are swarming with space pirates. There aren't "countless" planets, but neither does Privateer.
5. Freelancer is an accomplishment in a age where space combat sims, not to mention free-form ones, are on a low.
6. It's far from perfect, and there's a lot of room for improvement.
Eder
Mr. Standoff
Yes, I definitely agree with you on all those points. I do think it's a good game, but not an extraordinary one, like I consider Elite and Pirates! to be. I think that the new features it brings to the genre don't make up for the ones which were lost due to the game's simplified style. In fact, I believe that Freelancer's greatest merit is really what you've wrote in that number 5 sentence. Here's hoping that this can somehow revive the space sim genre.
I'm just saying that Freelancer's free-form gameplay isn't nearly as free-form as I'd like it to be, and Freelancer doesn't have any truly substantial innovations (apart from the technological kind)... instead it just adds more of what I've seen in previous games.
Sure, it probably beats the original Elite like you say it does, but there have been other games since then which gave players much more freedom. It's all those games (like Frontier and Privateer, for example) which I expected Freelancer to out-do... IMO it came close to the quality of those games, but still didn't level with them, and certainly did not surpass them.
Oh, and Ghost, I guess I could profit by using your method, but I'm an honest trader Honest traders makes barely no money in Freelancer 
--Eder
I'm just saying that Freelancer's free-form gameplay isn't nearly as free-form as I'd like it to be, and Freelancer doesn't have any truly substantial innovations (apart from the technological kind)... instead it just adds more of what I've seen in previous games.
Sure, it probably beats the original Elite like you say it does, but there have been other games since then which gave players much more freedom. It's all those games (like Frontier and Privateer, for example) which I expected Freelancer to out-do... IMO it came close to the quality of those games, but still didn't level with them, and certainly did not surpass them.
Oh, and Ghost, I guess I could profit by using your method, but I'm an honest trader
Honest traders makes barely no money in Freelancer --Eder
gevatter Lars
Vice Admiral
FreeLancer:
Does anyone of you know that there is a FreeLancer TC in progress bringing back the old Privateer with some adds?
Go and check out there Forum at WingCenter.de (it in english)
The Reckoning a FreeLancer TC
About the WC6 Stuff...well we at WingCenter.de have tought about what should a WC 6 have....most people here are telling what shouldn't be in there.
Well I will try to compress about 14 pages into this list->
- Complex landing procedure...like in the real flight sims
- Real Actors in Movies (no CGI)
- The Medals and flighgroup system of WC1, where you are assigned to a sqadron because of you piloting skills
- Better integration of the Kilrath and Borderworlds into the story, maybe the Player can chose his Faction or change it during the game
- Mor Political background during the game...maybe something like a newspaper
- Better graphics...but that is something that is logical...isn't it?
- DVD....hey for the Movie-quality the DVD is the best thing.
- The fights fighter against fighter should be harder...like in the book where its quite a performance to hunt down 2-3 fighters in a mission...except the missions where quite big fleets meet each other.
- Joystick support...since FreeLancer it seams that it no longer normal to play with a joystick
- Some RPG stile character development...better aiming etc.
- Going back to the beginning of the Kilrathi war (pre WC1) flighing the Wildcat, Hurrican and other old ships...and then the Hornet will be the newest Tech ^__^
- Not to many (new) ships, but these few are the cream de la cream
I think I got the most of it...for the rest...I am to lazy to search every piece out of the text...but I think that is enough for the moment.
Does anyone of you know that there is a FreeLancer TC in progress bringing back the old Privateer with some adds?
Go and check out there Forum at WingCenter.de (it in english)
The Reckoning a FreeLancer TC
About the WC6 Stuff...well we at WingCenter.de have tought about what should a WC 6 have....most people here are telling what shouldn't be in there.
Well I will try to compress about 14 pages into this list->
- Complex landing procedure...like in the real flight sims
- Real Actors in Movies (no CGI)
- The Medals and flighgroup system of WC1, where you are assigned to a sqadron because of you piloting skills
- Better integration of the Kilrath and Borderworlds into the story, maybe the Player can chose his Faction or change it during the game
- Mor Political background during the game...maybe something like a newspaper
- Better graphics...but that is something that is logical...isn't it?
- DVD....hey for the Movie-quality the DVD is the best thing.
- The fights fighter against fighter should be harder...like in the book where its quite a performance to hunt down 2-3 fighters in a mission...except the missions where quite big fleets meet each other.
- Joystick support...since FreeLancer it seams that it no longer normal to play with a joystick
- Some RPG stile character development...better aiming etc.
- Going back to the beginning of the Kilrathi war (pre WC1) flighing the Wildcat, Hurrican and other old ships...and then the Hornet will be the newest Tech ^__^
- Not to many (new) ships, but these few are the cream de la cream
I think I got the most of it...for the rest...I am to lazy to search every piece out of the text...but I think that is enough for the moment.
Ghost
Emperor
Originally posted by Eder
.Oh, and Ghost, I guess I could profit by using your method, but I'm an honest trader
--Eder
You can buy diamonds in Berlin for 350 aprox and sell them in Tokyo for 1500 aprox
You can buy Engine parts in Tokyo for 400 aprox and sell them in Los Angeles for 1000+
being an honest trader pays a lot actually!
You just need to find a good Trade route.