Vision AI

Iceblade

Admiral
It seems like it would be possible to create a complex block of WCPpas code that would include a bunch of AI command functions that would overall give an AI that references this code an edge. I am actually a little surprised that this hasn't been done before due to the crappy AI in WCP/SO.
 
Easier said than done. If someone has an AI algorithm that has been shown to work well, please let me know.
 
Iceblade said:
It seems like it would be possible to create a complex block of WCPpas code that would include a bunch of AI command functions that would overall give an AI that references this code an edge. I am actually a little surprised that this hasn't been done before due to the crappy AI in WCP/SO.
I think people have gotten far too used to verbally kicking the WCP AI around. It's not any worse than the AI in previous games (why would it be? It's made by the same company, even if not by the same people) - in fact, it's a great deal better. What exactly is it that was so impressive about the AI in previous games that makes people insist that the WCP AI is worse? Sure, one-on-one, the WCP AI doesn't provide a challenge... did the AI do so in previous games? I sure don't recall WC1/2/3/4 ships pulling any amazing manoeuvres that would surprise me...
 
Well, I don't remember all my wingman dying or ejecting everytime a heavy fighter reared its head.

I lose a bunch of friendlies even vampires to mantas shooting up the tailpipes of my wingman. I always have to go crazy nuts on every manta and devil ray just so my wingman don't bit it in the minutes of combat.

What I always found biazzre was how the WCP wingman always seemed to hold their own than the supposed ace pilots from the Midway in SO. It really doesn't seem like the numbers have been altered that much. Seriously, I can't see how the designers ever meant for the Cerberus to lose all those vampires from mission to mission.
 
Blame your memory, not the AI. Ejecting and dying pilots were a very regular occurence in previous games - I've certainly heard more than a few people mention that the first thing they did in WC1 upon starting a mission was to send their wingman home, to keep him/her alive. Even in WC2, where the odds were much lower, you'd still wind up losing your wingman once every two or three missions, and in every capship mission. WC3 & 4 wingmen weren't the greatest of survivors either - you pretty much had to take Hobbes, Maniac or Flint if you wanted your wingman coming home with you.

The funny thing is, you've also just said that WCP pilots were able to hold their own... and yet you're unable to connect the dots and realise that this means the WCP AI doesn't suck at all. Why couldn't they do as well in SO? Think about it - in WCP, you would fly with a wing of three fighters against a group of five Morays. Sometimes, you flew with multiple wings and actually outnumbered the enemy at some navpoints. In SO, you always flew in a group of six fighters... but the enemy nearly always outnumbered you three to one or more.
 
Quarto said:
WC3 & 4 wingmen weren't the greatest of survivors either - you pretty much had to take Hobbes, Maniac or Flint if you wanted your wingman coming home with you.

Well I have never had any troubles with Catscratch or Cobra while flying WC3 and WC 4. I've only seen the odd ejection (or deaths as it seems to be in WC3) when I play WC3 and WC4. WCP Wingmen tend to eject more than the previous 2 games (the fist 2 did have the more than occational death(wc1), ejection(wc2)) but they did tend to deal with mantas well (They never even knew what a devil ray was thanks to me!)
 
It was rare for me to ever lose anybody in WC3 or 4 (flash was actually the only one I can remember). In SO, too many times have I come back by myself and I notice that Amazon and Stiletto turned out to be shity pilots, they always seem to be the first one to go out of the game.

But forget WC game comparisions, I've seen how stupid the Friendly AI is, they don't even try to evade as their a**es get shot off. At least the alien AI is smart enough to evade every once in while when I'm shooting up their tail.

Really, the friendly AI has very little survivability. They shouldn't be worried about taking out one fighter but staying alive. At least then I wouldn't have to fight 30 enemy fighters by myself (skates, morays and mantas) a real pain.

All I am saying is, would it even be possible to add in a little survivability into the AI, like

check for damage on rear armor and then make butbeingshot = true;

if(butbeingshot) then begin
juke = true;
end;

juke would then lead to a function in one of the include files basically telling the ship to evade (I'm not that familiar with the SO pascal codes anymore, so I don't know off hand what there is to use, but on a glance there isn't much)

end
 
I always thought of it like this, not every "ace" pilot was the red baron right? Just becuase a good wingleader brought back a rookie a few times for them to get the ace title ( assuming its a number like 5 or so) and even then your wingmen arent all aces some are just vets, or really lucky. Besides if I didnt have to save my wingmens butts The games would be realllly easy. Makes you work as a team. Yes I agree they do stupid things, but hey they are human right?
 
Iceblade said:
But forget WC game comparisions, I've seen how stupid the Friendly AI is, they don't even try to evade as their a**es get shot off. At least the alien AI is smart enough to evade every once in while when I'm shooting up their tail.

Really, the friendly AI has very little survivability. They shouldn't be worried about taking out one fighter but staying alive. At least then I wouldn't have to fight 30 enemy fighters by myself (skates, morays and mantas) a real pain.
Again, you have no idea what you're talking about. The AI in WCP is definitely not dumber than in WC3. It's just that the battles are way bigger and more crowded. In WC3, you and your wingman went up against five Dralthi. Of those, most concentrated on the player, leaving the wingman relatively safe. So duh, he came home undamaged. In WCP, it's not quite so easy - you may have half a dozen ships attacking the player, but there's still gonna be another three dozen ships out there shooting each other. It's not exactly a wingman-safe environment.

Remember also, it's a game. Having half a dozen serial-killer wingmen would just plain suck. Who wants so many people stealing his kills? Nobody.
 
Quarto said:
Remember also, it's a game. Having half a dozen serial-killer wingmen would just plain suck. Who wants so many people stealing his kills? Nobody.
Wel that would provde a chalenge if they did. In CP when Maniac says he won't stop flying so no one catches up on him in the kill board I was already ahead of him by 20 odd kills (shows you how good I am!!) So making the Friendly AI slightly more deadly so they make the killboard situation a bit more interesting would be nice. But I have not had anyproblem with any of their surviablity!
 
The only complaints I have about wingmen AI on Prophecy are true in all WC games-

The Friendly Fire Scenario-
You're in deep **** if you get between them and whatever they are shooting at because they don't stop firing after they hit the first or second time, they just keep unloading his/her gun battery until you die or happen to get out of the way (which is obnoxious considering if you accidently shoot them once, they whine and moan like no one's business)

The Single-Mindedness Scenario-
WC wingmen often tend to fixate on one target, even at the expense of the mission- "Let's all focus on chasing that one light fighter around while three or four heavies are pounding our carrier/transport/bombers into dust!"

The Wing Management Scenario-
This kind of plays off the previous scenario, and is more of an interface issue then an AI issue, but it drives me nuts how hard it is to arrange for your wing to do any task that requires a division of an element consisting of several fighters- for instance, you can tell all of them to "Attack my Target," but you have to individually target your wingmen, comm them, and then target a specific target if you want to divide your wing in half- for instance, if you want to tell your wing of 3 to each engage seperate enemy ships. They also don't have any mission specific commands- e.g. I can't tell them to "Escort Transport" so they focus only on ships making runs on the transport instead of chasing around space superiority fighters without specifically finding out which enemy targets are targeting the transports myself, manually comming and designating the targets to each wingman, and trying my best in the meantime to do my part as a mission element to ensure mission sucess. I guess, in summary, I wish for easier wing commands!

Really though, independent of the above, I like the Vision AI. On Nightmare, the fighters behave according to their strengths, especially in Standoff- I can't count how many times I've been toasted by a light fighter that slid around behind me and shoved a DF up my tailpipe, or a Drakhri (spelling?) that just unloaded it's guns. The only things I would change (if possible) would be the frequency enemy fighters use missiles (I would make them use their missile loadouts like they were going out of style, which would make the missions wayyy harder, but more realistic (relatively speaking)) and program enemy ships to occasionally try pulling tried and true WC manuevers, be it the Shelton slide, using autoslide to turn around and blast backwards, sit n' spin, hard brake, etc. Having enemy pilots act in tandem would be kind of cool too (for instance, having one attempt to drive the player into the gunsights of another), but that's asking too much.
 
jaeger said:
I always thought of it like this, not every "ace" pilot was the red baron right? Just becuase a good wingleader brought back a rookie a few times for them to get the ace title ( assuming its a number like 5 or so) and even then your wingmen arent all aces some are just vets, or really lucky.

Someone with 5 kills is considered an Ace is Wing Commander.

scottandfiddle said:
Wel that would provde a chalenge if they did. In CP when Maniac says he won't stop flying so no one catches up on him in the kill board I was already ahead of him by 20 odd kills (shows you how good I am!!) So making the Friendly AI slightly more deadly so they make the killboard situation a bit more interesting would be nice. But I have not had anyproblem with any of their surviablity!

That's exactly the point. If a bunch of pilots could compete with the player character ont he killboard, it could skew the gameplay too much. New players on any difficulty could be at risk of being able to just sit back and watch the AI play the whole game.
 
Ya'll seem to be missing the point. Firstly, I dropped the comparision as really I only played WC3 and 4 on rookie and just haven't gotten around to replaying them on Ace, hard, or nightmare. WCP and SO I have played on rookie, veteran, and nightmare. Secondly, I don't expect the Friendly AI to fight as well as even a weak human player, just to try and evade when being shot to pieces. They seem to get so focused on a target and they ignore the fact that they have 6 enemies shooting at them. Again, I really don't know why the friendly AI has such a problem with evading. The concept seems lost on them, yet the Nephilium seem to have gotten the idea down pretty well.

The advent of evasion code would only provide the player a little extra time to a) help out said friendly and b) not be the only target in the area.

And please, even a dumb--- knows to juke when several enemies are hitting the ship's rearend.
 
Is there even any point to this thread, too? As eddieb said, improving the AI is easier said than done, and I don't believe anyone will do it. That said, I don't think making really large threads with lots of posts about how you don't like the AI is anything more than pointless whining.

It's like you started a thread called "Vision Graphics", posted "So, I think the graphics could be better if someone modelled more detailed ships which used higher resolution textures" and then people spent the next 20 posts saying why they think the original WCP graphics either suck or are better than WC4's. It's fruitless.

This is a waste of bandwith of the fan *projects* section, since I don't see anyone *planning* to do anything. It's great that you *wish* something was different, but that's hardly going to spark any editing breakthroughs.
 
Whose says nobody is going to do anything? When I get the chance, I'll make an improved piloting code block. Unforuantely I am already beyond in my studies, but I am nearly caught up.
 
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