Tonnage

Dragon1

Rear Admiral
Whats up with the light mass of ships in the WC universe? A modern day Nimitz-class CVN is about 350 meters in length (about the size of a Confed destroyer), but displaces almost 100,000 standard tons full load.

Even in other universes ships are typically much greater in mass. For example:
1) A Star Trek Intrepid-class Starship (about 300 meters in length) is 700,000 metric tonnes.
2) A Babylon 5 Omega-class Destroyer at 1.7 kilometers is 44 million metric tonnes.

While a Bengal-class Carrier in the WCU measuring between 690-700 meters in length comes in lighter than a modern nuclear carrier. What gives?
 
Well, firstly, any discussions based on what things are like in other universes are worthless - you might as well discuss whether Arthas could beat Aragorn in a single duel.

And as for the comparison of the modern-day carriers to WC ships, modern-day carriers are made of steel, while WC ships are made from durasteel, plasteel, and a variety of other alloys. And, it's worth noting, we don't know what these alloys actually consist of, so we don't know their weight.
 
Quarto said:
you might as well discuss whether Arthas could beat Aragorn in a single duel.

He could after he turned "evil". Even though Aragorn probably is the best figther, Arthas could slow roast his guts with the death coil. :p

But seriously, Isnt this kind of thread forbidden? They rules say they are, but they usually live for a looooong time. :(
 
Repeat after me: Wing Commander is a fictional universe.

Comparisons to the real world are, at best, prone to error, and at worst an exercise in complete and utter futility.

That being said, you do realize you're trying to compare ships (Nimitz and Confed carrier) that not only don't exist in the same universe, but even if they did they have nearly 700 years of metalurgy, materials science, and structural engineering knowledge between them, right?
 
It's not length that matters(okay this is a bit cliche) but INTERNAL VOLUME.(Why do so many freaking people forget this?)

Has anyone bothered to check habital volume on WCU warships?

(On the other hand, it's probably true that the masses are a bit on the low side along with fighters being too long.)
 
Quarto said:
Well, firstly, any discussions based on what things are like in other universes are worthless - you might as well discuss whether Arthas could beat Aragorn in a single duel.

And as for the comparison of the modern-day carriers to WC ships, modern-day carriers are made of steel, while WC ships are made from durasteel, plasteel, and a variety of other alloys. And, it's worth noting, we don't know what these alloys actually consist of, so we don't know their weight.


Wielding Frostmourne, I suppose he could beat Aragorn. :)
 
Well over 600 years from now is a very long time. It's quite possible new worlds means new metals etc. They might have discovered an alloy to replace steel. 3 times the strength and only half the mass!
 
Death said:
Repeat after me: Wing Commander is a fictional universe.

Comparisons to the real world are, at best, prone to error, and at worst an exercise in complete and utter futility.

That being said, you do realize you're trying to compare ships (Nimitz and Confed carrier) that not only don't exist in the same universe, but even if they did they have nearly 700 years of metalurgy, materials science, and structural engineering knowledge between them, right?

Well sorry for trying to invoke some interesting conversation!
 
When you start bringing other fictional universes into a third fictional universe, you're only asking for trouble.

Also note that those two examples of fictional universes have different technologies, and different requirements. Different materials, different structures, different requirements. Besides, WC capships don't usually NEED to carry their own fuel - they tend to refuel on the go, with their scoop fields, at least when they're not making 10000 kps runs across a solar system.
 
But seriously, Isnt this kind of thread forbidden? They rules say they are, but they usually live for a looooong time.

The "no vs. debates" rule exists for a very specific reason -- because we looked over at SpaceBattles and saw that a bunch of teenagers had turned cool Sci Fi stuff into some kind of a heartless and mindless competition... and that they were intent on spreading their idiocy over all corners of the internet. And the internet conducts idiocy like piles of leaves conduct fire. When we feel that this particular sort of "debate" is going on, we'll put a stop to it. What we're talking about, though, is "I think the Enterprise could blow up a Star Destroyer!" -- *not* "why did WC do this differently from Star Wars?"

The rule isn't "don't compare anything, ever, or we'll kick you in the head and eat your children!". It's reminding people to use some discretion in such matters... an issue that clearly doesn't even begin to come into play here. A much more important rule -- and hear me very clearly: MUCH MORE IMPORTANT RULE -- for you people to follow is the *first* one on the list. If you think that someone else is breaking the rules *LEAVE THEM ALONE*. It is not your job to moderate the chat board, and nothing makes me want to kick you in the head and eat your children harder than seeing some sanctimonious fellow shouting to everyone that he knows the exact rules better than someone else. If you truly believe that someone has posted something that threatens the spirit of conversation or the security of the board, then contact a moderator privately. (If it's something as stupid as "HE MENTIONED STAR TREK! GET YOUR PITCHFORK!", I will ignore you.)

To summarize: no one should ever, ever, ever, ever, ever need to point to the rules. Leave it to the people who've stupidly decided to moderate the board the way we do, and go have fun with some other conversation. And don't *worry* about breaking the rules accidentally - no one ever got banned for doing anything with good intentions... the worst an "accidental" versus thread will ever get is a hilariously mean comment by yours truly and a little thread closed icon. So knock yourselves out.

Well sorry for trying to invoke some interesting conversation!

Another good lesson is that just becomes someone is an admin/moderator doesn't mean they have the last word in a discussion. We're a small community, and everyone contributes as an individual, even when they've also sworn to uphold the psedolaw... unless Death is saying "this is against the rules, stop talking about it", then he's just part of the debate. You're welcome -- and if you truly want to participate in some sort of the debate, required -- to reply with a response that completely disagrees with his. Why do you think it's important? What can we learn? Etc.


(As for the actual topic -- I generally agree with everyone that comparing things to other Sci Fi universes doesn't necessarily hold water... the interesting thing to look at would be internal consistency among the various Wing Commander games. How does *that* pan out, and could it be done differently/better/etc.?

Of course, why is also a good question -- why did other series' go with more massive starships? Is there some production reason? A worthy question, maybe one of you can figure it out.)
 
Well, simple fact.

Star Trek ship masses use the same volumetric calculations as I think it was either a probe or the shuttle. It's also why you have relative consistency between the first ship and the NCC-1701-D, Rick Sternbach made sure to have about the same mass/cubic meter relation.
 
I'm pretty sure I've looked through internal consistency on masses before and, with a couple of exceptions, it was pretty good. Maybe I'll go look for where the heck I put it in a bit. I probably did it for one of the previously mentioned horrible Spacebattles discussions that I get into because people making idiotic claims about things that are completely baseless make me respond in an uncontrollable fashion :(
 
I know it's very pointless conjecture to wonder if one ship from one kind of fiction could beat another, but it still is always fun for me to argue why I think the Enterprise could destroy a Star Destroyer. Naturally, however, I'll not have that debate here.
 
IIRC, the only WC ships that are significantly inconsistent in mass/size to the rest of the WC universe are the Armada ships... however, Armada happens to also be the only game where we're specifically told the ships are using plasteel armour (instead of WC1/2's durasteel or WC3's... uh, titanium, isometal, platolum or whatever it was they used), so presumably that would be the explanation right there.
 
WC3/4 ships don't use durasteel armor?

Also: WC1 shield/armor stats for capships was in the 20-50 of centimeters
WC2 was in the 200-500 range of centimeters for armor
WC3 was in the thousands of centimeters
and WC4 was in the 500-1000 cm. range

-Which of these would actually be the most accurate for Confed capital ships?
Would an old Ranger-class CVL have 1000 cm. of forward armour plate when a Concordia-class Fleet Carrier has 300 cm. and a Bengal-class Strike Carrier has 24 centimeters?
 
Quick count...Just as an aside.

Ranger class CVL has a volume of about 5 million cubic meters. A mass of 28,000 metric tons would be rather ridiculously small. 0.0056 metric tons/cubic meter. Um that works out to a specific density that's about 5.6 kg/cubic meter compared to atmosphere at sea level which is 1.6kg/cubic meter. That's a bit too light.

Concordia CV btw would be about 7 million cubic meters(yup a difference of 80m assuming the same proportions would give you a very nice amount of extra space) and the specific density of its materials is SOMEWHAT better, but it's still a bit too light, particularly compared to the density of a fighter.

Comparison:
Hellcat V- 27m, 200 cubic meters, 14 metric tons.
 
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