Tolwyns mistake?

[Don]

I dont no if any of you came across such idea before to revel in depth of the story in WCIV...but why on earth did Tolwyn reinstate Blair back into the cockpit?
The man was finished with the war and decided to become a farmer...yet when it seemed his skills in the flight mode finally deserted him...tolwyn jus takes him bk...
Didn't Tolwyn at least think that Blair might become the thorn in his evil plans for a civil war? Or was there another motive...did he actually want Blair to join him and the Black Lance in the commencement of the war (should it actually of happened)...or did he just want Blair and other more experianced pilots to clean the mess caused by the corrupted individuals that were instigating such 'violent acts of terror' in the frontiers of the galaxy...so they can make way for the new generation of pilots (Seether etc) to fight in the real war.

 

[criticalmass]

Don, good to see somebody who still keeps his mind occupied with the old games..

But I think you'll understand that you not the first one to ask that question - and while many people have had interesting arguments and fascinating shouting bouts about it, there still is no final solution to the question.
For a rather well-informed discussion (at least it has LOAF in it) of the topic, take a look at this thread - maybe you have another idea or theory why Tolwyn took that route of action.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Well, there's a very easy answer because Tolwyn doesn't hide his objective at all: as he says, he wants Blair to be his "eyes and ears" during the crisis. That is to say that he wants a report from Blair that he can point to when he stands up in front of the Senate and asks for a declaration of war some weeks later. 'The great hero of the last war says this course of action is necessary!' The 'covert' aspect is that Tolwyn intends to manipulate what Blair sees and hears so that the eventual report will support what Tolwyn wants all along.

There is a second objective stated to Blair in the novelization: "I think your reputation, and by extension the implicit thread of what you did to Kilrah, will scare them back into sanity." (54) I would take that at only half value and say that in all likelyhood he intends Blair's assignment to appear aggressive to the colonies rather than to act as a deterrant.

Here we should again touch on what I discussed in the other thread: Blair is not necessarily a moral character. We like to reflect ourselves (or at least our idealized hero selves) onto him... but that aint necessarily so. We're dealing with a game that can be won by having Blair replace Tolwyn at the head of the evil project. Blair has no established backstory that makes him the 'good above all else' character; rather, to the eyes of Tolwyn and the Confederation he is the man who engaged in the wholesale slaughter of Kilrathi civilians in order to end the Terran-Kilrathi war. He is as far as you can get in terms of public perception from Bear Bondarevsky quibbling over the legality of firing on unarmed transports.

(Yes, it turns him to drink... but Tolwyn and the galaxy don't know that -- and I'll argue that this is really only the Grant storyline... Blair is drinking because he has no place in peacetime not because he cannot function after what he did to Kilrah. Note that after he rejoins the military and stays busy it is never a problem again.)

That leads me to what I think is the 'real' purpose of Tolwyn's request. Here is what the novelization says about Captain Eisen: "The Lexington's former commander should have been easy to recruit. His personality was a perfect match with PsyOps' profile. He was a decorated combat veteran with a reputation for doing what was needed, no matter how grim. The process of coaxing him into the project should have been, in Seether's opinion, a straightforward affair -- just show him the imperative and leave him alone to draw his own conclusions." (117)

Eisen was put into place on the Lexington specifically because Tolwyn wanted and expected to be able to turn him in favor of The Project. This seems to be the exact same situation as Blair -- Blair is a decorated combat veteran with exactly the same reputation... who is put back into service under exactly the same circumstances by Tolwyn. In fact, he is put back into service at exactly the same time Tolwyn decides that Eisen is not working out. Blair is Tolwyn's second choice to find a celebrity who will support his war goal... and I think he belives that Blair can be made to accept his ideology. (Note Tolwyn's sarcastic reference to Blair as his 'prodigal son' late in the novel.)

 

[criticalmass]

OK, no need to read the other thread. This one has LOAF in it too. Thanks man!

 

[Delance]

Here we should again touch on what I discussed in the other thread: Blair is not necessarily a moral character. We like to reflect ourselves (or at least our idealized hero selves) onto him... but that aint necessarily so. We're dealing with a game that can be won by having Blair replace Tolwyn at the head of the evil project. Blair has no established backstory that makes him the 'good above all else' character

Not sure of what you mean, so I might be wrong about what you are saying. But I’m pretty sure there’s some amount of backstory establishing Blair as a moral character. He’s not amoral. His stand against Tolwyn is based on something other than plot necessity.

Blair is tempted with evil and, in the end, could become evil, but that's standard fare on the hero theme. If anything, it also means Tolwyn was once a hero that fell.

He is for the most part an average joe fighting this big war. But he's something of an idealist on WCA, and do risk his life and what's left of his career to save the life os Stingray, who didn't like him, called him a traitor and might as well be trying to kill him for all he knows. I might agree that only WCIV he did becomes more concerned with greater moral matters, “I fight in the side of peace and honor”, and all that.

And as commented in the other thread, it’s interesting that the war hero celebrity status of Blair is what enables him to present a case against Tolwyn on the senate.

 

[LeHah]

Here we should again touch on what I discussed in the other thread: Blair is not necessarily a moral character. We like to reflect ourselves (or at least our idealized hero selves) onto him... but that aint necessarily so.

Some of the fault is on who they casted in the role. The general public connects Mark Hamill to a certain other major sci-fi movie and remember the daring-do of a young moisture farmer. That role was very moral - exceedingly so, at times. Its sometimes hard to define an actor from their role - though I've seen Hamill play some pretty good "amoral" characters since.

Not sure of what you mean, so I might be wrong about what you are saying. But I’m pretty sure there’s some amount of backstory establishing Blair as a moral character. He’s not amoral. His stand against Tolwyn is based on something other than plot necessity.

I wouldn't go all that far. The plot needed a hero and who better than a fighter pilot who's an average joe? Add to the fact that Blair is made to be a very bland character (to allow a player to 'imprint' himself on him without any effort) shows that as far as games go, he's just a puppet of sorts.

Blair is tempted with evil and, in the end, could become evil, but that's standard fare on the hero theme. If anything, it also means Tolwyn was once a hero that fell.

But you can end the game by taking Tolwyn's job. Thats not exactly "moral".

 

[X_FIREFALCON]

Another good conversation...

I agree that the primary reason for the inclusion of Blair in Tolwyn's plan was to lend credence to his underlying cause ("underlying" because he's not outspoken in explaining his aim in the beginning; that aim being to ensure mankind's survival through readiness; the war against the UBW is just a means to that end). If he can turn Blair into his puppet, great. If not and Blair is simply the "eyes and ears" of the operation, it allows Tolwyn the opportunity to twist his words into something that supports his goal. And even if Blair goes AWOL and joins the other side...well, it'd be one more thing to twist the Assembly's arm over and emphasize why it's important to act sooner rather than later, right?

After playing all the games from beginning to end starting with WC1, I have to say that WC4 was definitely my favorite because of the storyline and the fact that the whole Blair-Tolwyn relationship reared its ugly head. We finally got a chance to see how very fine the line was between the "good guy" and the "bad guy," and I can't seem to recall anything I've ever seen that struck me as being anywhere near as powerful or tight from beginning to end. I always saw Blair and Tolwyn as flip sides of the same coin, both with the same ultimate goal in mind, but each with a different idea of how to get there. And WC4 seemed like the perfect exclamation point to that conflict.

I agree with LOAF that Blair isn't designed to be a sanctimonious, moral character, and LeHah's perhaps right that our interpretation of him as such could be due, in no small part, to Hamill's earlier portrayal of Luke Skywalker. Christopher Blair is just an average shmuck who can be twisted whichever way, can have his buttons pushed, and can make a split-second decision in the heat of passion without thinking about the consequences (it's partly put into the storyline that way, and it's partly played by the player that way). He's not the last good guy standing in a world of evil...usually there's some supporting characters along for the ride that back him up regardless what he does, so he's never alone in whatever good or evil activity he engages in. And the one time he finally does find himself alone (in Prophecy), he's removed from the storyline just like that, and others are left to fight the good fight without him (a real shocker, yes, but it also shows that he's not necessarily an irreplaceable force of goodness within the scope of the Wing Commander Universe - he's still just a regular guy with some celebrity status and popularity).

As for the ending of Wing Commander IV, let it also be noted that while his celebrity status makes him the only person available with enough of a voice to stand up to Tolwyn, it's only the fact that he speaks up and condemns Tolwyn from the get-go that allows him to be heard. If he relies on his tainted celebrity status alone and doesn't say anything immediately, he's arrested on the spot. The only reason he's allowed to speak is because of his relation with Taggart and the fact that he has something to say that can't wait. His celebrity status itself doesn't seem to amount to a hill of beans by that point in the story - at this point, Blair is seen as the villain, and Tolwyn is the hero that will save the Confederation from this evil. Remember, Blair's reputation has already been tainted badly when he stands before the Assembly. The only thing that saves him from getting carted away is Taggart's willigness to give him a chance. I'm almost led to wonder, though...if Tolwyn didn't openly confess his true motives and disregard for the weaker elements of humanity, would things have ended differently?

Anyway, Wing Commander 4 really struck a chord with me. Of all the characters in the story, I'm still most enthralled by Tolwyn's complexities. Granted, the atrocities he committed in WC4 were right to be nails in his coffin, but when you consider his ultimate goals, one has to wonder if his vision was in the right place even though his methodologies and practices were not. And by the time we see the end of Prophecy and Secret Ops, I'm almost compelled to sit back and ask myself philosophically, "was he wrong?"

- FireFalcon ~};^

 

[Delance]

I wouldn't go all that far. The plot needed a hero and who better than a fighter pilot who's an average joe? Add to the fact that Blair is made to be a very bland character (to allow a player to 'imprint' himself on him without any effort) shows that as far as games go, he's just a puppet of sorts.

Blair is bland on WC1, but his personality builds up from there. We know he was idealistic on WCA. By WCIV he is more like a sage than a hardcore military man, with his Jedi insights on the disctinction between warriors and killers.

The job of a soldier is to carry out orders without question. Blair was more than a soldier. He starts as an average joe, becomes a superb fighter pilot and is more than just that later on. War brings out the best and the worst in people, and WCIV really demonstrates that.

But you can end the game by taking Tolwyn's job. Thats not exactly "moral".

The game let the player make the moral choices. It's an interactive movie. But Blair cleary don't become an evil admiral leader of the Black Lance, since he is a nice commodore on WCP and the Black Lance is gone.

 

[Mace]

the tolwyn character had done enough,

I think most people would make thesame choices in WC4 as i did, turn my back on confed, trust my "friends" and learn what was going on... the box art gave it away
too much.. with the head of tolwyn on the place of thrakhath in the previous game.

WCP did sound in the end of C.B. in a very descent way...
you could no longer play him, you would not want to, he was too high-ranked to be
on the front lines, and had too much of an icon to go out and fight..
and yet he did, and brought the ultimate sacrifice, your hero made a last stand and
won, in some way. On the mission where blair assigns himself your wingman, and you walk down that lane together, it is you meeting... yourself. Passing the torch.

 

[Lt.Death100]

the box art gave it away too much.. with the head of tolwyn on the place of thrakhath in the previous game.

What does the placement of his head on the box have to do with any of this?

 

[Bandit LOAF]

He is for the most part an average joe fighting this big war. But he's something of an idealist on WCA, and do risk his life and what's left of his career to save the life os Stingray, who didn't like him, called him a traitor and might as well be trying to kill him for all he knows. I might agree that only WCIV he did becomes more concerned with greater moral matters, “I fight in the side of peace and honor”, and all that.

The Stingray point isn't a good one, since Blair specifically says he believes he has no career left to risk shortly beforehand and because ultimately the entire thing is childish -- he uses rescuing Stingray as nothing but an excuse to needle Tolwyn ("No, sir. Except... if I had it to do again, I would."). In fact, this is a case of Tolwyn being truly gracious and Blair simply being a jerk. Tolwyn's reply is kind and almost respectful: "Yes, I believe you would. Very well, Captain. Consider yourself reprimanded."

I think Academy is overstated as well. Consider On Both Your Houses, where Blair et. al. find that Bronwyn is developing bio-weapons. Blair does not react at all... and Archer's only stated complaint is that doing so is wrong because it will force the Kilrathi to use similar weapons. Blair's big 'moral' issue in the series is in The Price of Victory where he suggests to Tolwyn that the Kilrathi defector (Bok) should be trusted... and when Tolwyn says no, Blair is happy to fly the mission and ambush the kil he'd just promised to help in cold blood.

Wing Commander Academy is, if a comment on Blair's character at all, the story of his youthful enthusiasm being crushed and a personal resentment for Tolwyn building -- morality never enters into the picture here, Blair is always willing to go along with his orders.

... just like Seether.

The game let the player make the moral choices. It's an interactive movie. But Blair cleary don't become an evil admiral leader of the Black Lance, since he is a nice commodore on WCP and the Black Lance is gone.

So... the way we know he's not an admiral after WC4 is that he's an admiral in Prophecy?

 

[Lt.Death100]

So... the way we know he's not an admiral after WC4 is that he's an admiral in Prophecy?

Blair was a Commodore.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Blair was a Commodore.

... which, in Wing Commander as in life, is a one star Admiral.

 

[Delance]

he uses rescuing Stingray as nothing but an excuse to needle Tolwyn

And all this time I thought Blair was interested in saving a fellow pilots life. Of course not. The sole reason he did that was to annoy Tolwyn.

("No, sir. Except... if I had it to do again, I would."). In fact, this is a case of Tolwyn being truly gracious and Blair simply being a jerk.

Yeah, Blair is a Jerk. Poor Tolwyn. No wonder he turned evil, after Blair treating him so poorly. It's not as if Blair had any reason to dislike Tolwyn at the time.

Blair is always willing to go along with his orders.

... just like Seether.

Yeah, now that you said it, Blair is just like Seether. Or any military officer that, *gasp*, is willing to go along with his others. Except on WC2. And WC3. And WC4.

Listen, I understand what you are saying. But still I don't think Blair was amoral, and did have a moral compass. If Tolwyn thought so, he was sorely mistaken. Maybe it's me reading too much into his character, but I don't think so.

I mean, can't you dig up one occasion or another where Blair acted in a moral way before WCIV?

So... the way we know he's not an admiral after WC4 is that he's an admiral in Prophecy?

Of course not. There are several reasons:

1. The Black Lance is gone.
2. Blair is not an evil admiral.
3. He does not have Tolwyn's job, but an entirely different one. In fact, he has significantly less power on WCP than he did at the WCIV admiral ending. He commands... nothing at all.
4. Commodore and Admiral are equivalent, but not the same. If they wanted to follow the Admiral ending, they could've named him Admiral on WCP.
5. Its more likely that Blair went along the "good" ending rather than the "evil" one.

I'm not claiming this is official, but I don't see any evidence in contrary.

Of course that's how I see things. You have a lot of WC knowledge. Do you think there's reasons to believe otherwise?

 

[Bandit LOAF]

And all this time I thought Blair was interested in saving a fellow pilots life. Of course not. The sole reason he did that was to annoy Tolwyn.

Your sarcasm is amusing, but that's not what I said at all. He *uses* what he did as an excuse to needle Tolwyn, it's not why he did it in the first place.

Yeah, Blair is a Jerk. Poor Tolwyn. No wonder he turned evil, after Blair treating him so poorly. It's not as if Blair had any reason to dislike Tolwyn at the time.

I agree with this thought to an extent. The great thing about Wing Commander II was that Blair and Tolwyn didn't see eye to eye... but they still had the same goal.

That's the interesting Blair Tolwyn relationship, not the turning of one super-good and the other super-evil and then literally having them duke it out. They're *both* painted as bad guys in their WC2 feud -- when Blair goes looking for support among the Concordia crew he's rebuffed because Tolwyn is a good commander who's lead them into battle... and when Tolwyn attacks Blair people like Hobbes are offended because there's no evidence save a personal animosity. It works both ways and it's fantastic.

At the same time in terms of a greater continuity you can trace this back and you really can blame Blair. Towlyn takes Blair under his wing in the movie and Academy... and Blair is really just offended by the fact that Tolwyn isn't willing to treat him as special -- that despite being the favorite son he's still expendable and not given the whole picture of the war. At the same time, Blair will do the exact same things when he's in command... so it's more of a personal insult to Tolwyn than it is any kind of idealistic foundation upon which young Blair rebels and earns Tolwyn's distrust. (We know Tolwyn was watching out for Blair at the Academy on the grounds of his friendship with the senior Blair... Tolwyn really is the wrong party when things first come to a boil.)

Yeah, now that you said it, Blair is just like Seether. Or any military officer that, *gasp*, is willing to go along with his others. Except on WC2. And WC3. And WC4.

So, then by inference you would claim that Seether was innocent because he was only following Tolwyn's orders? This is an excuse that doesn't hold up anywhere.

Listen, I understand what you are saying. But still I don't think Blair was amoral, and did have a moral compass. If Tolwyn thought so, he was sorely mistaken. Maybe it's me reading too much into his character, but I don't think so.

I mean, can't you dig up one occasion or another where Blair acted in a moral way before WCIV?

Oh, I think he has morals... everyone does. But he doesn't have the *generic* morals that we like to push onto him -- there's something deeper to the man than 'everything Blair does is perfect!', and Kilrah alone is proof of this.

This is not a criticism: frankly, the character should be allowed to have a petty fight with Tolwyn that makes him look like a jerk... because he's a man and not some kind of generic video game savior.

1. The Black Lance is gone.
2. Blair is not an evil admiral.
3. He does not have Tolwyn's job, but an entirely different one. In fact, he has significantly less power on WCP than he did at the WCIV admiral ending. He commands... nothing at all.
4. Commodore and Admiral are equivalent, but not the same. If they wanted to follow the Admiral ending, they could've named him Admiral on WCP.
5. Its more likely that Blair went along the "good" ending rather than the "evil" one.

I'm not claiming this is official, but I don't see any evidence in contrary.

1. Are they? I see no proof of this -- it's not even gone at the end of Wing Commander IV (but rather is in hiding). The idea that The Project has been 'wiped out' in Prophecy is entirely fanon.
2. Is he? The evil space bugs are certainly interested in, quite specifically, picking his brains about his ability to kill indiscriminately.
3. We're not told anything about what Blair does or does not command; only that he is a *Naval* flag officer observing the Midway's shakedown cruise (and, at the same time, *not* a Space Forces flight instructor)!
4. Commodore and Admiral are the same in Wing Commander, as they have been in their most recent USN usage. We see Commodores refered to as Admiral time and again in Wing Commander. Commodore in Wing Commander is "Rear Admiral, Lower Half" today.
5. Is it? A lot of people seem to have ended up with the Admiral ending based on their interest in things like collecting new toys and blowing up space stations. Blair does both of these things in the Kilrathi war -- from stealing the Excalibur to destroying Kilrah. Then ask yourself where selected-for Panther is... it seems that Admiral Blair has brought *Hawk* to the Midway!

Of course that's how I see things. You have a lot of WC knowledge. Do you think there's reasons to believe otherwise?

I think it's an interesting exercise in rhetoric to point out that it's entirely possible (and even likely when the amount of simple proof is balanced) that Prophecy-taken-alone follows the 'Admiral ending'; on the other hand, as a 'WC historian' I can simply cite the novel and make the debate go away forever.

 

[Ridgerunner]

... which, in Wing Commander as in life, is a one star Admiral.

Or a Rear Admiral, Lower Half. As in real life.

 

[Edfilho]

I think both are right... I always played WC on the side of morals. So MY POV of Blair is of a very moral person. A really good guy.

Thing is, this is not (just) a movie or a book. The core of the experience is still to be found in the game (the genesis of the series and the longest hours we have with it). LOAF is always pointing at how bland Blair is in WC1... which only means that Blair had the same morals as the player. For instance, I hated the Kyoto rapiers so bad that I skipped them. That is a blatant disregard for direct instructions. Many players didn't care for keeping their wingmen alive, or even shot maniac down...

But the way I played WC4 blair is defintely a good guy.

 

[Delance]

Your sarcasm is amusing, but that's not what I said at all. He *uses* what he did as an excuse to needle Tolwyn, it's not why he did it in the first place.

Well, yes, but in all fairness, it’s not like he wasn’t been waiting for this opportunity for a long time.

I agree with this thought to an extent. The great thing about Wing Commander II was that Blair and Tolwyn didn't see eye to eye... but they still had the same goal.

To annoy each other and to defeat the Kilrathi?

That's the interesting Blair Tolwyn relationship, not the turning of one super-good and the other super-evil and then literally having them duke it out.

Sure thing. It would be boring if Tolwyn was a stereotypical incompetent jerk. The fact that he is competent makes it much more interesting. (From the player’s point of view).

They're *both* painted as bad guys in their WC2 feud -- when Blair goes looking for support among the Concordia crew he's rebuffed because Tolwyn is a good commander who's lead them into battle... and when Tolwyn attacks Blair people like Hobbes are offended because there's no evidence save a personal animosity. It works both ways and it's fantastic.

I agree, but in WC2 it seems that Blair has much more reason to hate Tolwyn than the other way around. Even tough the court cleared him, Tolwyn went out of his way to consider Blair a traitor. Considering they knew each other from earlier, that’s a very bad thing. Everyone else that survived the Claw and shows up on WC2, with the obvious exception of Jazz, vouches for Blair’s loyalty to Confed.

On the other hand, Blair has to face the fact that other people have every reason to trust and admire Tolwyn, what makes him even more isolated inside the Concordia. That part worked great.

We know Tolwyn was watching out for Blair at the Academy on the grounds of his friendship with the senior Blair... Tolwyn really is the wrong party when things first come to a boil.

What makes considering Blair a traitor all the more damaging.

A lot of it was circumstantial, too. Tolwyn effectively sends Angel to her death and treats Blair coldly when he asks for information. Of course the situation explains that, but it’s not the kind of stuff that helps build up a healthy relationship. Paladin does that, too, but at least acts up on it later on.

So, then by inference you would claim that Seether was innocent because he was only following Tolwyn's orders? This is an excuse that doesn't hold up anywhere.

The opposite of that of that, actually.

And I was also point out that Blair do have a history of disobeying orders.

Oh, I think he has morals... everyone does. But he doesn't have the *generic* morals that we like to push onto him -- there's something deeper to the man than 'everything Blair does is perfect!', and Kilrah alone is proof of this.

Amoral people have no morals.

I’m not pushing anything. I’m merely analyzing what is available in the fiction. I don’t think everything Blair does is perfect.

Now, do you think Kilrah was wrong? What do you think Blair should’ve done? Just let the whole thing go and go fight in Proxima?

This is not a criticism: frankly, the character should be allowed to have a petty fight with Tolwyn that makes him look like a jerk... because he's a man and not some kind of generic video game savior.

With that I have no problem. Alas, it seems hard to have a fight with Tolwyn and not ending up being a jerk.

1. Are they? I see no proof of this -- it's not even gone at the end of Wing Commander IV (but rather is in hiding). The idea that The Project has been 'wiped out' in Prophecy is entirely fanon.
2. Is he? The evil space bugs are certainly interested in, quite specifically, picking his brains about his ability to kill indiscriminately.
3. We're not told anything about what Blair does or does not command; only that he is a *Naval* flag officer observing the Midway's shakedown cruise (and, at the same time, *not* a Space Forces flight instructor)!
4. Commodore and Admiral are the same in Wing Commander, as they have been in their most recent USN usage. We see Commodores refered to as Admiral time and again in Wing Commander. Commodore in Wing Commander is "Rear Admiral, Lower Half" today.
5. Is it? A lot of people seem to have ended up with the Admiral ending based on their interest in things like collecting new toys and blowing up space stations. Blair does both of these things in the Kilrathi war -- from stealing the Excalibur to destroying Kilrah. Then ask yourself where selected-for Panther is... it seems that Admiral Blair has brought *Hawk* to the Midway!

1. Well, let me put it in another way. The Black Lance was a legitimate part of Confed on the Admiral ending. Is there any evidence it was so on Prophecy?
2. The quote is “They are fascinated by Us… Our ability to kill without remorse…”. When did Blair ever kill indiscriminately? And besides, he doesn’t seem evil and twisted on WCP as he was on that ending.
3. There’s no indication he has Tolwyn’s job, either. If he had become a power-driven individual, like Tolwyn, why not take Wilford’s command, like Tolwyn did on WC3?
4. And still, if they wanted him to follow the admiral ending, why change it?
5. Actually you make a good point. But perhaps, if that was the case, Hawk could be Admiral Blair’s aide. Blair also brought Maniac, which was available at the present at the instructor ending.

 

[Lt.Death100]

2. The quote is “They are fascinated by Us… Our ability to kill without remorse…”. When did Blair ever kill indiscriminately?

Kilrah.

 

[Spertallica]

Isn't the Black Lance still around in the Privateer 3 script as a seperate faction?