To Kill a Hakaga...

[frostytheplebe]

In the past, I've asked the question what it would take to kill a Hakaga. According to the answers I got, descriptions revealed that it would take an entire wing of Bomber's torpedos to be able to knock one out.

In the books they wound up having to resort to marine companies placing mines on the interior of these ships to blow them apart.

We've also said that had the Concordia successfully managed to get off a shot at the thing, that most likely it would have survived.

So in the end, my question is this; What if instead of Torpedos, we had a wing of Morningstars go in with Mace missiles and each launch thiers from a different angle. Would that possibly be able to bring one down? If so, why was this tactic not employed?

 

[Dundradal]

They would need to repeatedly strike the same point on the ship. The Hakaga was designed to take damage as well as dish it out. If you launched several Maces from different angles at different spots, I think the damage would be minimal if not superficial at best. 4 Mk IV torpedoes did some damage, but they hit fairly close to each other.

 

[Pip]

...If so, why was this tactic not employed?

Personally, I would've liked to have seen the SUGGESTION that this tactic was even considered.

Which we don't get.

One of the reasons I don't like FA... in a lot of ways, it doesn't feel connected to the games. The same names, but that's about all I can say.

 

[Dundradal]

Confed threw everything they had at the Hakaga fleet. Maces may have proved more valuable in an anti-fighter role because of the numerical superiority of the Kilrathi. Every ship that could carry torpedoes was armed with them and attacked the fleet. FA shows only a limited slice of the action during BoT. Most of the attention is paid to the landings on the Hakaga and we don't hear too much about how much damage the bombers were able to inflict on the rest of the fleet.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

One of the reasons I don't like FA... in a lot of ways, it doesn't feel connected to the games. The same names, but that's about all I can say.

Eh, that's an odd criticism - the characters are definately there... Hunter is Hunter, Tolwyn is (SO1) Tolwyn - Bear is Bear (but then he was created specifically for that purpose.) It's also full of moderately obscure references... from the alien characters from Freedom Flight to Bear having worked on the new simulator from Wing Commander Academy.

The problem (and it's not really a problem) is that it goes well beyond the scope of the games - it's the first time we see a political system, it's the first time we see Earth, it's the first time we see civilian culture... and these things may not mesh with how you imagined them before the novel.

It's also worth noting that the outlines for the first three novels were all developed between Special Operations 1 and 2... the writer's bible Dr. Forstchen had for Fleet Action didn't have anything about Maces. (And, of course, the fact that the Mace could take out a Ralatha was something we discovered for ourselves - Maniac introduces it as an anti-fighter weapon...)

 

[t.c.cgi]

One of the reasons I don't like FA... in a lot of ways, it doesn't feel connected to the games. The same names, but that's about all I can say.

Well, the Mace isn't employed in any of the subsequent games until WC4 when the Border Worlds get their hands on them. There could be alternate reasons for them not being deployed. For example, it could be that the nuclear warhead -which detonates when hit - was deemed to risky, given that if just one were to prematurely detonate the entire bomber wing and other warheads would be lost.

I, personally, wouldn't gamble that. Not against a ship with that heavy of a defensive screen.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Yeah, that's also a good point - it's not like Fleet Action was the *only* Wing Commander story to conveniently forget about the amazing all-killing supermissile...

 

[Pip]

Eh, that's an odd criticism - the characters are definately there... Hunter is Hunter, Tolwyn is (SO1) Tolwyn - Bear is Bear (but then he was created specifically for that purpose.) It's also full of moderately obscure references... from the alien characters from Freedom Flight to Bear having worked on the new simulator from Wing Commander Academy.

Actually, Hunter didn't feel like Hunter from Freedom Flight, Kirha REALLY didn't feel like Kirha from Freedom Flight, and yes, Bear was a terribly hyperdeveloped ubermensch who seemingly can do no wrong.

The problem (and it's not really a problem) is that it goes well beyond the scope of the games - it's the first time we see a political system, it's the first time we see Earth, it's the first time we see civilian culture... and these things may not mesh with how you imagined them before the novel.

Actually, none of these things bothered me. It was the military sequences that didn't feel right to me, didn't feel like the game. I suppose it's because we didn't see many capship engagements before.

On the other hand, the Broadsword attack still stands out as bothering the hell out of me. No mention of the turrets and then the bizarre "now pull up so the bottom scanners can lock on" which just seemed... freakish.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Actually, Hunter didn't feel like Hunter from Freedom Flight, Kirha REALLY didn't feel like Kirha from Freedom Flight, and yes, Bear was a terribly hyperdeveloped ubermensch who seemingly can do no wrong.

I'm going to have to ask for an argument on these points - they seem pretty similar to me. Hunter is a seemingly-freewheeling loner whose devil-may-care atttiude is something of a put on... and Kirha's just your average stranger in a strange land.

I can't disagree about Bear, but it's definately how he was set up - Tolwyn *loves* the guy the minute he shows up in Special Operations 1.

 

[Gamer8585]

Well, the Mace isn't employed in any of the subsequent games until WC4 when the Border Worlds get their hands on them. There could be alternate reasons for them not being deployed. For example, it could be that the nuclear warhead -which detonates when hit - was deemed to risky, given that if just one were to prematurely detonate the entire bomber wing and other warheads would be lost.

I, personally, wouldn't gamble that. Not against a ship with that heavy of a defensive screen.

I feel the need to say something about the "Mace." The games treat it less like an actual nuclear weapon and more like a really powerful conventional weapon (thermobaric [but without the need for an atmosphere] maybe?) There is no way a nuclear weapon would act like the mace would. A nuclear explosion requires a very precise sequence of events to occur, so simply shooting it would damage the internals and make it less likely to go off (although it would probably spread radiation around).

I wouldn't be too worried about flying with a mace, it would be trying to use it with all the flack flying around. The missile would probably get too damaged to work properly and just create a large radiation cloud in space. The fighters could most likely shield the pilots from the radiation, but it still wouldn't be something I would want to fly though (would most likely reek havoc on the ship's computer).

The only way to make it successful would be to get really close to the target and detonate the warhead. With a nuke thats the kinda thing you would only get to do once, because even if your ship somehow survived the close-range-nuclear-blast: 1) the resulting EMP wave would probably fry every system on your ship, and 2) the ship's shields and armor would most likely be nill and you would get exposed to all of that lovely nuclear fallout from whatever you just fraged (or at least took a sizable chunk out of).

 

[Max Gene]

Maybe it isn't possible NOW. I seem to recall that 6 or 7 centuries ago we also decided man couldn't fly, and space? Ha! I'd fly with a mace, gladly.

 

[t.c.cgi]

There is no way a nuclear weapon would act like the mace would.

I would like to remind you that very few things in Wing Commander work as we understand them today. Also, there's nothing to say the Mace wasn't explicitely designed to detonate when hit rather than fizzle and die like a standard torpedo. Remember, this is Maniac's dream missile from SM2 pretty much verbatim: a volatile mega warhead that would blow up everything at a nav point, including himself. Anyway... the missile could have a detonator that triggers at the slightest prevocation.

 

[Max Gene]

Well, there was ONE major change- Maniac wanted to load up enough that on a hard turn your rapier would explode, and even if fired at maximum range would kill you.

Effective? Oh, screw entire fleets with that baby. But hardly...ahhh... ethical.

 

[t.c.cgi]

Right, so he got a fair compromise of a personal ICBM and an airshow jet to go with it.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I feel the need to say something about the "Mace." The games treat it less like an actual nuclear weapon and more like a really powerful conventional weapon (thermobaric [but without the need for an atmosphere] maybe?) There is no way a nuclear weapon would act like the mace would. A nuclear explosion requires a very precise sequence of events to occur, so simply shooting it would damage the internals and make it less likely to go off (although it would probably spread radiation around).

I don't think impact-detonation nuclear weapons are beyond the realm of possibility... remember, 'shoot it to blow it up' isn't something Maniac happened to discover - it was how the weapon was designed to work. We're not talking about a game of mousetrap - the sequence of events you refer to happens instantaneously.

Right, so he got a fair compromise of a personal ICBM and an airshow jet to go with it.

... and it's worth considering (the next time we rag on Maniac) that that airshow became Confed's premiere strike fighter.

 

[Ijuin]

The "shoot it to blow it up" aspect also has the tactical advantage that if the ENEMY shoot it at close range as it approaches them, it will blow them up. This is great if the enemy is trying to shoot it down thinking it is a torpedo or something--they will end up killing themselves.

 

[Pip]

I'm going to have to ask for an argument on these points - they seem pretty similar to me. Hunter is a seemingly-freewheeling loner whose devil-may-care atttiude is something of a put on... and Kirha's just your average stranger in a strange land.

I can't disagree about Bear, but it's definately how he was set up - Tolwyn *loves* the guy the minute he shows up in Special Operations 1.

Well, I intended to give you arguments, but I cannot find my copy of Fleet Action. It may well have been lost a move or three ago, I fear, so I cannot select quotes from the book to point to -- and given that it's been nearly a decade since I last read FA, I will freely admit I can't recall it well enough to engage in debate.

 

[Jason_Ryock]

...and you would get exposed to all of that lovely nuclear fallout from whatever you just fraged (or at least took a sizable chunk out of).

Fallout isn't created by the detonation of a nuclear device. Fallout is created when the radiation from the explosion attaches itself to the particles in the ground and air around it when the bomb goes off.

All though Space is not a "True" vacuum in the sense that there are particles out there, the amount of items in the vacuum would not be high enough to create fallout great enough to kill someone.

I think what you meant to say was that you would get an oversized dose of radiation, not affected by the fallout.

 

[frostytheplebe]

Fallout isn't created by the detonation of a nuclear device. Fallout is created when the radiation from the explosion attaches itself to the particles in the ground and air around it when the bomb goes off.

All though Space is not a "True" vacuum in the sense that there are particles out there, the amount of items in the vacuum would not be high enough to create fallout great enough to kill someone.

I think what you meant to say was that you would get an oversized dose of radiation, not affected by the fallout.

Couldn't the particles attach to say... an unlucky fighter that was too close? but not close enough to the main explosion? or to the ship debris?

 

[NinjaLA]

yes, but not in sufficient quantity to even make you tingle unless you are dumb enough to touch irradiated fighter bits. some bombs have the explosive core coated in layers of dense matter just to create 'fallout' during the explosion, but even that is going to be really inefficient considering that space has a spherical scatter diagram, and on earth all those particles settle. settled particles are much more dangerous than those that whiz by you at extreme velocity.