After listening to the Nephilim radio chatter in Secret Ops, one of them mentions being "swept aside by the Aligned Peoples". In Prophecy, it mentions that there is a Mother-Creature. Is there any more reference to this or anything more concerning the Nephilim leadership structure or who the Aligned Peoples are?
The Nephilim Fragments
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Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Fragments is a good choice; figuring out the Nephilim with the limited resources available is a lot like putting together ancient philosophy from a few seventh-hand quotes.
Syd Mead, who designed the Nephilim, published an art book a few years back that included a section on his Wing Commander work. You can find his discussion of the Nephilim in this CIC update: https://www.wcnews.com/news/update/3772
(What Mr. Mead refers to as a 'Lieutenant' is what the Official Guide calls a Warlord - the larger, more impressive Nephilim who fly Devil Rays and kidnap Blair)
You can find a list of all the Nephilim comm messages here: https://www.wcnews.com/loaf/prophecy/enemies.txt
Lots of things come from this, particularly in relation to what you already mentioned -- a third, higher class ('Mother Creature')... and a lot of references to their intentions.
Admidst all the ordinary death threats there's some interesting stuff, too - the taunts reference 'testing' us in combat, they refer to defeated enemies as slaves and food creatures... well, have a look for yourself. Nephilim society could be expanded on greatly with a good essay about these various quotes and what they could mean.
Other valuable fragments might be the ICIS Manual's analysis (of course), the Prophecy Official Guides "post game" Confed Analysis (printed at the end of the book) and then this 'in universe' newsgroup post by Boomer: https://www.wcnews.com/news/update/3833
Syd Mead, who designed the Nephilim, published an art book a few years back that included a section on his Wing Commander work. You can find his discussion of the Nephilim in this CIC update: https://www.wcnews.com/news/update/3772
(What Mr. Mead refers to as a 'Lieutenant' is what the Official Guide calls a Warlord - the larger, more impressive Nephilim who fly Devil Rays and kidnap Blair)
You can find a list of all the Nephilim comm messages here: https://www.wcnews.com/loaf/prophecy/enemies.txt
Lots of things come from this, particularly in relation to what you already mentioned -- a third, higher class ('Mother Creature')... and a lot of references to their intentions.
Admidst all the ordinary death threats there's some interesting stuff, too - the taunts reference 'testing' us in combat, they refer to defeated enemies as slaves and food creatures... well, have a look for yourself. Nephilim society could be expanded on greatly with a good essay about these various quotes and what they could mean.
Other valuable fragments might be the ICIS Manual's analysis (of course), the Prophecy Official Guides "post game" Confed Analysis (printed at the end of the book) and then this 'in universe' newsgroup post by Boomer: https://www.wcnews.com/news/update/3833
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Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Sure, knock yourself out.
Would it be too much of a stretch to consider the Aligned Peoples called this due to the hive structure they use? The rigid caste structure that would be in place could be the reason for this label; they'd either be a worker/soldier, drone, or queen. The only mission regardless of caste would be the well-being of the hive, aligning them in a common goal.
The mother creature seems an obvious queen bug.
The mother creature seems an obvious queen bug.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
In the scene where Finley and Casey watch the intercepted bug transmission. The transmission says "we have captured another of the non-aligned" or something like that, and Finley tells Casey that we are the non-aligned.Edfilho said:
No. They are included because they are the opposite side of the alignment.PSJaguar said:
Let me put it this way. During the Cold War, there were two sides - the US, and the Soviets. Other countries had three options - they could align themselves with one of the two sides, or they could stay neutral (non-aligned). Thus, for example, Poland was aligned with the Soviet Union. the UK was aligned with the US. What did the Polish and the British have in common? Yes, you guessed it - they were the Aligned Peoples
.(...heck, there was even an international organisation of neutral countries, which was called the Non-Aligned Movement)
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
The problem is that the taunt doesn't make any sense in this context. When a Nephilim pilot says "You shall be swept aside by the Aligned Peoples.", he is clearly referring to his side and not a term created for a Cold War analogy setting the Kilrathi and the Nephilim as the two sides and all others as not being allies.
Also, you're reading far too much into the 'transmission' scene.
We're talking about a scene that actually starts with the characters saying they have no idea who the 'Aligned Peoples' are... and end up seeing a human tissue sample and defining them not as "humans" but as "Us... and Blair."
Unless Blair isn't a human (which would also ruin the claim, though), "us" refers to Casey and Finley... and not some sudden insight they may have had upon seeing a human tissue sample that the only thing the Nephilim could ever refer to as being 'non-aligned' are humans (who, clearly at this point, are *not* 'non-aligned' in your Cold War sense anyway-- since there's a large conflict going on between the Confederation and the Nephilim.
(In fact, Paladin actually refers to the fact that the Kilrathi are allied with the Confederation in 2681... so the analogy breaks down there, too...)
You are on to something, though, in that 'aligned' was probably meant to indicate the idea that the Nephilim are the allies, tools, of some other species yet to be introduced - that was certainly the plan for a future story.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Yeah, that is a huge problem with the idea that the Kilrathi are also a part of the "Aligned Peoples", whatever that may be. In my defence, though, I'm more interested in dismissing certain assumptions than in arguing that yes indeed, the Kilrathi are a part of the "Aligned Peoples". It's like with the organic ships thing - any time somebody suggests that Nephilim ships are alive because they're organic, I feel obliged to point out that plastic is organic too - not because I don't think the Nephilim ships are alive (in fact, IIRC the virus thing in SO somehow indicated they were alive), but merely because I don't think such things should be automatically assumed to be true.Bandit LOAF said:
That having been said, I don't think I am reading too much into the transmission scene - yes, they talk about "us... and Blair" instead of "humans", but that's just because it sounds more dramatic - and of course, Blair is singled out because at this point in time, it's like that's his sample we're seeing on screen. So, IMO, it's not too far of a stretch to claim that "Non-Aligned" refers specifically to the human species - I mean, really, if this label also included the Kilrathi, then wouldn't they need to be a bit more specific when talking about capturing "another of the Non-Aligned"? By this point in the game, they must have captured or killed millions of Kilrathi...
X_FIREFALCON
Spaceman
Good discussion, guys. Just a few points I'd like to share my own thoughts on...(of course, bear in mind that I'm just a tad bias with this discussion considering the idea I've formulated into my head for the current fan fiction story I'm working on):
I agree with you, LOAF, that when the Nephilim refer to "the Aligned Peoples," they are indeed referring to the collective group of races they are affiliated with. From the Kilrathi Prophecy and the discussions I've had in the past with LOAF and others on these boards, I have it worked up in my head where the Nephilim and the specific "Aligned Peoples" the Nephilim are referring to are essentially the epitome of Darwinism...through endless conflicts with races (which might be a stretch, but we see the concept touched upon in the Kilrathi Kn'Thrak and alternatively the Tr'Thrak), you get the idea that the Kilrathi have been purposefully pushed into this game of Darwinism, a kind of test that the Nephilim exist to challenge them in at some point. When the Kilrathi surrendered to the Confederation, I myself came to see it as not a complete "loss" in battle, but more like an unconditional armistice...then over time, I got the feeling that relations improved between the Kilrathi and the Confederation, making them - in effect - "allies" or "friends" on some level. In a couple instances, we see them working together against the common threat of the Nephilim.
Now, while "the Aligned Peoples" refers to the current races that comprise this collective the Nephilim speaks about, I see the name as being something comparable to a proclaimed Darwinian perfection. In their eyes, they are the elite, the super-beings the lesser races should feel humble beneath. Should another race find itself gloriously victorious over all other opposition, only then will they be seen as worthy enough to be able to test their might against that of the Nephilim and/or the rest of "the Aligned Peoples" to rise to that same level of superiority themselves and await the next challenger, and so on and so forth. In my mind, though, the general word "alignment" here refers to being a part of this game of Darwinism and "non-alignment" means existing outside this "natural" tendency.
While there's speculation that the Nephilim appeared in our space (Confederation & Kilrathi Space) for the purpose of finding something - an additional idea I've included in my story - the Kilrathi also figure their appearance is in accordance with the Sivar Prophecy of Kn'Thrak because they were "defeated" by the Confederation, and so the bugs have appeared either as Star Gods or as messengers from Star Gods to destroy both the Kilrathi and the group that bested them, the Confederation.
Only the Confederation doesn't share the same plan of Darwinism and violent expansionism as the Kilrathi or the other races that are thrown into this ultimate "test." And in effect, you get the feeling that the Kilrathi themselves suffer a huge culture shock in the period after the War, finally developing a mutually beneficial relationship with the humans they had fought for decades. As such, not only is the Confederation "non-aligned" in this deadly sport, but the Kilrathi too have now removed themselves from the contest because of their relatively peaceful co-existence with a race they were suppose to conquer or truly fall to in battle (neither of which happened).
Anyway, I'm probably reading into everything because I have to in order to write a follow-up story to the events of Prophecy & Secret Ops, but my take on it (in a nutshell) is:
"the Aligned Peoples" - a term the Nephilim use to refer to the strongest indominable races, of which they consider themselves affiliated (though perhaps they are a bit lower on the pecking order as messengers, watchers, and seekers)
"Non-Aligned" - a term the Nephilim use to refer to all creatures that turn their backs on the supposed natural order of ultimate universal Darwinism
Ultimately, there'd be two sides - the "Aligned" which would be all the races involved in this violent test of superiority, and the "Non-Aligned" which would be those races that exist as an affront to that natural order. By that concept, two combating enemies could, by these standards, be on the "same side" because they are part of this ultimate inevitable plan.
But as the Confederation continues its peacetime affairs and the Kilrathi learn to expand beyond their violent engrained tendencies, you get the idea that both are seen as abominations to the Nephilim because they live in violation to this universal will and impulse. As such, they're both weakling races unworthy of standing in the presence of any race of "the Aligned," and will likely be swept aside (in the Nephilim's eyes) by another chosen, more enlightened race or they themselves in times to come. And we get the idea in Prophecy that judgment has already been passed on both, and both are somewhat ignored for the time-being because they are unworthy and inferior, having not evolved themselves through endless combat. The only real reason for the Nephilim's part in our space at the point in time we see is something that was never fully explained to us (i.e. searching for some object of some sort and perhaps just general intel. about both races in preparation for some future eradication).
Anyway, that's my take on things, for better or worse, for right or wrong. If anyone has any comments, additional points to add, arguments, or whatever, feel free...just so long as you don't say something so contrarily compelling that I'm forced to rewrite my whole dang fan fiction story!
- FireFalcon ~};^
I agree with you, LOAF, that when the Nephilim refer to "the Aligned Peoples," they are indeed referring to the collective group of races they are affiliated with. From the Kilrathi Prophecy and the discussions I've had in the past with LOAF and others on these boards, I have it worked up in my head where the Nephilim and the specific "Aligned Peoples" the Nephilim are referring to are essentially the epitome of Darwinism...through endless conflicts with races (which might be a stretch, but we see the concept touched upon in the Kilrathi Kn'Thrak and alternatively the Tr'Thrak), you get the idea that the Kilrathi have been purposefully pushed into this game of Darwinism, a kind of test that the Nephilim exist to challenge them in at some point. When the Kilrathi surrendered to the Confederation, I myself came to see it as not a complete "loss" in battle, but more like an unconditional armistice...then over time, I got the feeling that relations improved between the Kilrathi and the Confederation, making them - in effect - "allies" or "friends" on some level. In a couple instances, we see them working together against the common threat of the Nephilim.
Now, while "the Aligned Peoples" refers to the current races that comprise this collective the Nephilim speaks about, I see the name as being something comparable to a proclaimed Darwinian perfection. In their eyes, they are the elite, the super-beings the lesser races should feel humble beneath. Should another race find itself gloriously victorious over all other opposition, only then will they be seen as worthy enough to be able to test their might against that of the Nephilim and/or the rest of "the Aligned Peoples" to rise to that same level of superiority themselves and await the next challenger, and so on and so forth. In my mind, though, the general word "alignment" here refers to being a part of this game of Darwinism and "non-alignment" means existing outside this "natural" tendency.
While there's speculation that the Nephilim appeared in our space (Confederation & Kilrathi Space) for the purpose of finding something - an additional idea I've included in my story - the Kilrathi also figure their appearance is in accordance with the Sivar Prophecy of Kn'Thrak because they were "defeated" by the Confederation, and so the bugs have appeared either as Star Gods or as messengers from Star Gods to destroy both the Kilrathi and the group that bested them, the Confederation.
Only the Confederation doesn't share the same plan of Darwinism and violent expansionism as the Kilrathi or the other races that are thrown into this ultimate "test." And in effect, you get the feeling that the Kilrathi themselves suffer a huge culture shock in the period after the War, finally developing a mutually beneficial relationship with the humans they had fought for decades. As such, not only is the Confederation "non-aligned" in this deadly sport, but the Kilrathi too have now removed themselves from the contest because of their relatively peaceful co-existence with a race they were suppose to conquer or truly fall to in battle (neither of which happened).
Anyway, I'm probably reading into everything because I have to in order to write a follow-up story to the events of Prophecy & Secret Ops, but my take on it (in a nutshell) is:
"the Aligned Peoples" - a term the Nephilim use to refer to the strongest indominable races, of which they consider themselves affiliated (though perhaps they are a bit lower on the pecking order as messengers, watchers, and seekers)
"Non-Aligned" - a term the Nephilim use to refer to all creatures that turn their backs on the supposed natural order of ultimate universal Darwinism
Ultimately, there'd be two sides - the "Aligned" which would be all the races involved in this violent test of superiority, and the "Non-Aligned" which would be those races that exist as an affront to that natural order. By that concept, two combating enemies could, by these standards, be on the "same side" because they are part of this ultimate inevitable plan.
But as the Confederation continues its peacetime affairs and the Kilrathi learn to expand beyond their violent engrained tendencies, you get the idea that both are seen as abominations to the Nephilim because they live in violation to this universal will and impulse. As such, they're both weakling races unworthy of standing in the presence of any race of "the Aligned," and will likely be swept aside (in the Nephilim's eyes) by another chosen, more enlightened race or they themselves in times to come. And we get the idea in Prophecy that judgment has already been passed on both, and both are somewhat ignored for the time-being because they are unworthy and inferior, having not evolved themselves through endless combat. The only real reason for the Nephilim's part in our space at the point in time we see is something that was never fully explained to us (i.e. searching for some object of some sort and perhaps just general intel. about both races in preparation for some future eradication).
Anyway, that's my take on things, for better or worse, for right or wrong. If anyone has any comments, additional points to add, arguments, or whatever, feel free...just so long as you don't say something so contrarily compelling that I'm forced to rewrite my whole dang fan fiction story!
- FireFalcon ~};^