The Landreich "Republic" vs. The Union of Border Worlds

The FRL is significantly older than the UBW in the wc4 period (the Landreich is over 20 years old, while the UBW is only a few weeks old)

The UBW uses older confed and civilian craft, their ships are merely mods applied to the basic structure.

The FRL has so many older fighters because they buy confed's hand me downs and extras.
 
Dundradal said:
The FRL is significantly older than the UBW in the wc4 period (the Landreich is over 20 years old, while the UBW is only a few weeks old)

The UBW uses older confed and civilian craft, their ships are merely mods applied to the basic structure.
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I see. So they're using the same basic fighters as Confed c. WC3/4?

The FRL has so many older fighters because they buy confed's hand me downs and extras.
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Yeah. They've got everything from modded Ferrets and corvettes to pre-war fighters (Hunter spots some of the latter in Fleet Action), as well as their share of Kilrathi planes.
 
Starwind said:
I see. So they're using the same basic fighters as Confed c. WC3/4?
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I believe that they also have some of the older models, such as Broadswords/Rapiers, of course those ships were probably still in service in Confed in the final stages of the war, but I do not know for certain if that is true, but it is very unlikely that they would dispell all their older craft and replace them with new ones.
 
Starwind said:
I see. So they're using the same basic fighters as Confed c. WC3/4?
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Well in reading TPoF, they do not mention the UBW flying anything newer than wc2 era craft. Hellcat Vs and T-bolts are prized as Blair and Maniac fly theirs until they can no longer be used and have to scrapped.

There is no chance of them having the latest confed designs enmasse however.


Starwind said:
Yeah. They've got everything from modded Ferrets and corvettes to pre-war fighters (Hunter spots some of the latter in Fleet Action), as well as their share of Kilrathi planes.
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Again you are talking about the FRL and the UBW. The FRL has always had its share of ancient fighters lying around (Richards and Tolwyn see them in AS which is in 2634, 40 years before wc4)

The UBW has no access to kilrathi planes. The FRL does as they possess a kilrathi heavy carrier, but remember a lot of the planes were lost in the Battle of Baka Kar, so they are probably not used unless neccessary (although knowning Kruger....)
 
Dundradal said:
Well in reading TPoF, they do not mention the UBW flying anything newer than wc2 era craft. Hellcat Vs and T-bolts are prized as Blair and Maniac fly theirs until they can no longer be used and have to scrapped.

There is no chance of them having the latest confed designs enmasse however.
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Ah. *curses Amazom for not delivering the WCIVN quicker*

Again you are talking about the FRL and the UBW. The FRL has always had its share of ancient fighters lying around (Richards and Tolwyn see them in AS which is in 2634, 40 years before wc4)
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Unfortunately, AS is one of the novel I presently lack.

The UBW has no access to kilrathi planes. The FRL does as they possess a kilrathi heavy carrier, but remember a lot of the planes were lost in the Battle of Baka Kar, so they are probably not used unless neccessary (although knowning Kruger....)
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True. Mjollnir's probably carrying more normal Landreich planes now.
 
If the UBW manages to reproduce the flash-pak the FRL is screwed. Also I just read TPOF novel and Paladin didn't seem surprised to hear about the UBW carrier group. I read it as him wanting to be certain that it was a active BW vessel and hoping that it wasn't.
 
After reading Loaf's timeline...it doesn't seem to jive with WCP. Okay, first of all, I know little of the actual timeline and so forth in Wing Commander mainly because I have never read the books (a mistake I intend to rectify). But in WCP isn't Maniac a major? Plus in Loaf's timeline it states he led a second fighter squadron but he states WCP that he's never had command of a squadron...? Maybe I'm totally off...
 
Maj.Striker said:
After reading Loaf's timeline...it doesn't seem to jive with WCP. Okay, first of all, I know little of the actual timeline and so forth in Wing Commander mainly because I have never read the books (a mistake I intend to rectify). But in WCP isn't Maniac a major? Plus in Loaf's timeline it states he led a second fighter squadron but he states WCP that he's never had command of a squadron...? Maybe I'm totally off...
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He had the Wild Eagle squadron in WC2:SO2, then lost it after Minx went traitor and ended up on the Victory in WC3... with the rank of Major. WC4N had him get a promotion to short colonel and the Kiev's wing, but then he lost that promotion and his wing again for WCP (IIRC, the WCP Strategy Guide explains this part). He seems to have a... rocky... relationship with his commanders, explaining his lack of a wing. :D

Besides, by WCP, they mixed up 'squadron' with 'wing', so he's never commanded a full wing before, which is true - Kiev was an escort carrier, according to WC4N, which meant he wouldn't have had a full complement.
 
Maj.Striker said:
After reading Loaf's timeline...it doesn't seem to jive with WCP. Okay, first of all, I know little of the actual timeline and so forth in Wing Commander mainly because I have never read the books (a mistake I intend to rectify). But in WCP isn't Maniac a major? Plus in Loaf's timeline it states he led a second fighter squadron but he states WCP that he's never had command of a squadron...? Maybe I'm totally off...
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He had the Wild Eagle squadron in WC2:SO2, then lost it after Minx went traitor and ended up on the Victory in WC3... with the rank of Major. WC4N had him get a promotion to short colonel and the Kiev's wing, but then he lost that promotion and his wing again for WCP (IIRC, the WCP Strategy Guide explains this part). He seems to have a... rocky... relationship with his commanders, explaining his lack of a wing. :D

Besides, by WCP, they mixed up 'squadron' with 'wing', so he's never commanded a full wing before, which is true - Kiev was an escort carrier, according to WC4N, which meant he wouldn't have had a full complement.

RogueBanshee said:
If the UBW manages to reproduce the flash-pak the FRL is screwed. Also I just read TPOF novel and Paladin didn't seem surprised to hear about the UBW carrier group. I read it as him wanting to be certain that it was a active BW vessel and hoping that it wasn't.
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Given that the UBW seemed to understand what the Flash-Pak was and how it worked fairly quickly, I would suspect that the data on it would spread out enough and fast enough that by the time the UBW started manufacturing them (Pliers said he didn't have time to make any extras, which suggests this is a simple concept to build... but hard one to conceive), that the Free Republic of the Landreich could also figure out the 'Flash-Pak proof armor' that everyone in Confed seems to be touting these days. :D

As far as the carrier scene goes, here's the cinematic from the opening parts of Pasqual:

Paladin: Ah, she’s a bonney ship. Tell me, is there news? Have there been more skirmishes in the Border Worlds?

Tolwyn: News of the worst kind, I’m afraid: betrayal. It appears that our great hero of the Kilrathi war has defected to the Union of Border Worlds.

Paladin: Blair? Defected? I find that hard to believe. He was always a hot head, but what on earth induced him to… what the devil is going on out there?

Tolwyn: The intelligence I’ve collected is erratic, unreliable. “Things fall apart. The centre cannot hold. Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world. The best lack all conviction…”

Paladin: “Whilst the worst possess a passionate intensity” – Yeats. And you have no idea who is behind all this?

Tolwyn: Well, one thing is clear, Senator: the Border Worlds militia grows increasingly aggressive. A grave mistake.

Paladin: I never knew Blair to be rash.

Tolwyn: Betrayal is always a mystery.

Paladin: Well, we are running out of time, Admiral. A declaration of war against the Border Worlds has been laid before the Assembly. The vote will be in seven days. The outcome of that vote will largely be determined by your report.

Tolwyn: Well, let’s hope that war is not our only option.

I don't see any signs of Paladin not reacting to 'carrier group' - it was never mentioned.
 
Haesslich said:
Given that the UBW seemed to understand what the Flash-Pak was and how it worked fairly quickly, I would suspect that the data on it would spread out enough and fast enough that by the time the UBW started manufacturing them (Pliers said he didn't have time to make any extras, which suggests this is a simple concept to build... but hard one to conceive), that the Free Republic of the Landreich could also figure out the 'Flash-Pak proof armor' that everyone in Confed seems to be touting these days. :D

As far as the carrier scene goes, here's the cinematic from the opening parts of Pasqual:

Paladin: Ah, she’s a bonney ship. Tell me, is there news? Have there been more skirmishes in the Border Worlds?

Tolwyn: News of the worst kind, I’m afraid: betrayal. It appears that our great hero of the Kilrathi war has defected to the Union of Border Worlds.

Paladin: Blair? Defected? I find that hard to believe. He was always a hot head, but what on earth induced him to… what the devil is going on out there?

Tolwyn: The intelligence I’ve collected is erratic, unreliable. “Things fall apart. The centre cannot hold. Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world. The best lack all conviction…”

Paladin: “Whilst the worst possess a passionate intensity” – Yeats. And you have no idea who is behind all this?

Tolwyn: Well, one thing is clear, Senator: the Border Worlds militia grows increasingly aggressive. A grave mistake.

Paladin: I never knew Blair to be rash.

Tolwyn: Betrayal is always a mystery.

Paladin: Well, we are running out of time, Admiral. A declaration of war against the Border Worlds has been laid before the Assembly. The vote will be in seven days. The outcome of that vote will largely be determined by your report.

Tolwyn: Well, let’s hope that war is not our only option.

I don't see any signs of Paladin not reacting to 'carrier group' - it was never mentioned.
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It was mentioned in the version of that conversation that was in the novel but like I said there's nothing indicating that Paladin was surprised by the existence of a BW carrier group.

Flash-Pak points

1: As far as I can remember the only ships that were confirmed as having Flash-Pak proof armor were the Super carriers.

2: There's a lot of time between WC:TPOF and WC:p so even if Flash-Pak proof armor is common in WC:p that doesn't mean it is common at the time of the war we are discussing.

3: The FRL is not exactly high on Confed's high-tech giveaway list and I doubt the FRL has the either the money to buy the Flash-Pak proof armor or the ability and/or resources to produce it.

4: For all we know pre Flash-Pak ships might have to be entirely rebuilt to use the Flash-Pak proof armor which the FRL is incapable of doing. Or they might be incapable of being equipped with the Flash-Pak proof armor.
 
If they can't afford Flash-Pak proof armor they can always "Permantly borrow" a manufacuting center :p (Hey, Landreich started out as pirates :D )
 
Raptor said:
Good rule of thumb for pirates: never steal anything you can't make a quick get-away with. :D

Best, Raptor
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You keep forgetting this is Landreich pulling off the impossible is what they do everyday, and ramming is a standard tactic :D :p :D
 
Evil Imperial said:
If they can't afford Flash-Pak proof armor they can always "Permantly borrow" a manufacuting center :p (Hey, Landreich started out as pirates :D )
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You're still assuming that their ships can utlize the Flash-Pak proof armor and tht they would be able to manufacture enough for their fleet and have enough time to retrofit their fleet before the war starts. Also I doubt they would be willing to risk a war with confed by raiding the Solsystem or that they could get to the FRL/Confed border from the Sol system before Confed can scramble a intercept fleet.
 
My money is on whichever side gets their hands on some Kilrathi rock ships, the K'ha'hafs. If only Confederation engineers had come up with those things.... Imagine a whole asteroid field that was really a large group of rock ships that would suddenly surprise an attack an opposing fleet when it was passing through what it thought was an asteroid belt. If the Kilrathi had been able to produce more of them during the war, they may have been more effective instead of being destroyed easily.
 
Dragon1 said:
An interesting thought, would there had been a mass defection of Confed forces to the Border Worlds in the event of a war? I'm sure many of Confed's troops were recruited from the Border Worlds. Also, there would have to have been other prominent military commanders that could see through the line of crap that Tolwyn and his minions (people like Seether and Paulsen) were peddling.

I always thought that Confed responses to the presence of an enemy destroyer-carrier (the Intrepid) in Earth controlled space in WC4 seemed a little lax. The Ella missions seemed somewhat difficult, but I'm sure there was more than just 3 capital ships in the system. Did the others choose not to attack the Intrepid?

Also, Eisen was able to secure the support of a brand new, not yet completed Super Carrier that was docked at Confed HQ. That would indicate that not only the crew (probably thousands of people ) but some really high level brass at HQ saw through Tolwyn.

Think about it, if Confed HQ wanted the Intrepid out of action, how hard could it really have been? Also, the brass kinda sat back and watched the St. Helens and the Vesuvius blow the hell out eachother. No major disruption of the events.

Confed military obviously wasn't wholeheartedly buying the evil Border Worlds terrorist plot.
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Wow someone did there homework... Im thoroughly impressed! One thing you missed though, if you loose the game, you do see a huge fleet attacking the border worlds, so I dont know how much backing, or lack there of there really was of Towlyn, but there must have been enough... As for the Border Worlds Force, COME ON THEY HAD A MUCH LARGER FLEET THEN ONE CARRIER AND A FEW CRUISERS!!! Are we all forgetting the BWS Tango, the other Durango class that made an appearance in WC4? Also Admiral Wilfred constant mentions a detachment from "The Fleet" so they must have at least a few decent ships.
 
The UBW Fleet was comprised of ships taken from anywhere they could get them. The FRLN gave them some ships to use during their revolution (if we should call it that?).

Confed had a much larger fleet that if brought to bear would simply make the UBW fleet cease to exist.
 
Actually, Confed had a much larger fleet that if brought to bear could make the *UBW* cease to exist. Avoiding that outcome was a rather major objective in WC4, as I recall. ;) However, the same could be said of Confed vs the FRL, so it doesn't really do much to resolve the UBW/FRL debate.

Best, Raptor
 
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