The Landreich "Republic" vs. The Union of Border Worlds

Quarto said:
(finally, about the book version - yes, the battle there took longer than a few minutes; however, IIRC the location of the battle in the book was remote enough to make reinforcements pretty difficult, so at the end of the day it all amounts to the same thing)
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It takes place in Orestes which is a few more jumps out of place...and the Princeton is also involved in the fight....
 
This is the Border Worlds fleet data Bob and I put together:

Durango-c (2)
* BWS Intrepid, CV-6 & BWS Tango.
CVE (2)
* Admiral Wilford commanded two escort carriers (novel).
Transport-c (2)
* Intrepid battlegroup includes "a pair of fast transports with flared ore-shuttle decks", p.167.
Tallahassee (Min 2, Max 5)
* Two make up enemy convoy in Masa 2.
* Two appear in FMV sequence 2180A.
* BWS Johns Hopkins.
L. Cruiser (1)
* Intrepid battlegroup includes "an ancient light cruiser", p.167.
WC3 Destroyer (1)
* Appears in FMV sequence 2180A.
Caernaven (Min 6, Max 11)
* Three appear in FMV sequence 2240F.
* Two make up the convoy Maniac escorts to the Intrepid (novel).
* "a couple of the frigates bought it" at Speradon (novel).
* Four are then destroyed attacking the Vesuvius (novel).
Corvette (5)
* Intrepid battlegroup includes "a fistful of corvettes", p.167.
Cutter (6)
* Intrepid battlegroup includes "a half-dozen old revenue cutters", p.167.
WC3 Transport (3)
* Three make up the friendly convoy in Orestes 1.
Spacelab (4)
* Tyr System, three appear in Tyr 1/2a/2b, PSX only.
* Masa System, one appears in Masa 1.
 
Back on topic, we should use the min. size ORBAT (Order of Battle) accounting the losses incured in the Black Lance incident, the question is who'se fighter pilots and the quailty of fighters the UBW can field against the numerically superior FLR... :eek:
 
Evil Imperial said:
Back on topic, we should use the min. size ORBAT (Order of Battle) accounting the losses incured in the Black Lance incident, the question is who'se fighter pilots and the quailty of fighters the UBW can field against the numerically superior FLR... :eek:
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The UBW in the WC4N doesn't have the best-trained pilots - Blair's people cut through them pretty easily, and their casualty rates are horrendous... at least among the new pilots who come half-baked, according to Maniac. The Landreich's pilots are suicidally brave, and were apparently skilled enough to survive even the Baka Kar raid... which suggests that they also have an edge as far as training goes. At least Harper mentions going to an academy or school... something a bit more formal than the UBW's, to judge by his demerit comments.
 
Given their willingness to fight the numerically and technologically superior Confed and Black Lance forces, it would be hard to argue that the Border Worlds pilots would be less courageous than their FRL counterparts. Pilot quality is a bit more variable, but balancing out the unfinished new recruits would be the fact that the Border Worlds were a full part of the Confed War effort against the Kilrathi. They would potentially have a lot more veterans to draw upon with Confed training and frontline experiance. In the intro to WC4 for example, we hear of veterans on Nephele who've been RIFed from the Confed military.

Best, Raptor
 
* Tyr System, three appear in Tyr 1/2a/2b, PSX only.
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I don't trust the Border Worlds. What's happening in those spacelabs? Why do they have three of them in a backwater system like Tyr? Maybe Tolwyn was right after all.
 
A very large swing in the FRL's favor is the fact that not only are their pilots better and have better ships, they have a crazy ass president who leads from the front lines and in more cases than not is successful in pulling off something that can be called "victory."
 
Fruitcake said:
I don't trust the Border Worlds. What's happening in those spacelabs? Why do they have three of them in a backwater system like Tyr? Maybe Tolwyn was right after all.
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I don't think that Tolwyn ever hated the Border Worlds, or distrusted them in any way shape or form. I believe he only needed an enemy to carry out his plot and decided to use the Union of Border Worlds for just such a purpose. Please, correct me if I am mistaken.
 
Well, Paulsen wasn't Tolwyn, but Paulsen worked for Tolwyn. Paulsen's attitude was that they weren't from "...any pure stock...". It seemed that most of the upper Confed command believed that the Border Worlders were less important than the members of the core worlds. Vagabond mentions that the Border Worlds had been "dumped on" since the war ended. According to other threads, the WC4 novel depicts the Great Assembly as showing some bigotry towards the Border Worlds. If Tolwyn didn't have anything against the Border Worlders, I do think that he thought of them as genetically inferior.
 
In response to the Vesuvius battle discussion earlier: here's a "combined" novel/game timeline I put together a while back...

2673.342.0700

[Axius Station, Axius System]
Eagle's Claw Wing accompanies the Project's marine battalion to the front lines.
[WC4N]

[Control Bay, BWS Intrepid, Callimachus System]
Col. Blair and Lt. Col. Dekker review Dr. Brody's data on the Project's weapons. Chief Tech Sykes informs Blair that he has figured out how to use the flash-pak.
[Detailed: WC4, Scene 3220A]

[CIC, BWS Intrepid, Callimachus System]
Col. Blair, Col. Manley and Lt. Col. Farnsworth discuss the TCS Vesuvius, planning a detour through the Ella System in an attempt to reach Earth quicker. Blair agrees to bypass the Ella superbase.
[Detailed: WC4, Scenes 3230A & 3230B]

[CIC, BWS Intrepid, Callimachus System]
Col. Blair briefs Vice Admiral Wilford and the Intrepid's senior staff on his mission to Axius. Wilford orders the ship to head for Earth, by way of the Orestes System.
[Detailed: WC4N pp.311-313]

[Callimachus System]
The TCS Vesuvius jumps from the Axius System. The Intrepid launches thirty-eight fighters, lead by Colonel Christopher Blair and Lt. Col. Todd Marshall, with orders to keep off their IFF transmitters and ambush the Vesuvius' escort of fifty fighters. The Intrepid, meanwhile, moves at maximum speed to escape the Vesuvius and jump to the Ella System. The Union of Border Worlds forces unmask themselves, jumping into the battle against Terran Confederation Hellcats and Lances. Blair immediately destroys a Hellcat with an IFF missile and then a second with his tachyon cannon. Border Worlds Longbow's head towards the Vesuvius, and are intercepted by a pair of Terran Confederation Hellcats. Blair decloaks and destroys the first Hellcat with his guns, the second with another IFF missile. Turret fire from the Vesuvius destroys one of the Border Worlds Longbows. A second is able to fire two torpedoes, which cause minimal damage. A Border Worlds Broadsword, crippled by a pair of Terran Confederation Hellcats, rams the Vesuvius' side, detonating its torpedoes. Lt. Col. Marshall orders a retreat. Twenty-two Border Worlds fighters survive the action. Another pair of Terran Confederation Hellcats attack a damaged Border Worlds Ferret. Blair destroys both Hellcats, but the Ferret explodes from damage. The pilot ejects. Hoping to delay the Vesuvius long enough for Intrepid to escape, the four Border Worlds escort frigates move to launch torpedo runs. One is immediately hit by an anti-matter gun blast and destroyed. The Vesuvius ends its pursuit of Intrepid to engage the remaining three frigates. Preparing to jump, the Intrepid recalls all her fighters. A second frigate is hit crippled by an anti-matter blast and then destroyed by a mass driver battery. The final pair of frigates fire their torpedoes and begin to retreat. A Terran Confederation Lance de-cloaks and destroys both with flashpaks. The Intrepid jumps to Ella along with her surviving escorts. Two Border Worlds corvettes are destroying during jump. Blair follows the surviving forces through to Ella in his Lance, landing on the Intrepid.
[Detailed: WC4N, p.313-319]

[Flight Deck, BWS Intrepid, Ella System]
Colonel Christopher Blair arrives on the carrier's flight deck. Obsolete Scimitars, Sabers, Rapiers and home-built fighters are brought up from below to replace those crippled or lost during the previous battle.
[Detailed: WC4N, pp.319]

[Bridge, BWS Intrepid, Ella System]
Vice Admiral Wilford orders Col. Blair to the bridge, claiming that he is to valuable to risk in another battle.
[Detailed: WC4N, pp.319]

[CIC, BWS Intrepid, Callimachus System]
Col. Blair briefs the senior officers, ordering them to escort the carrier through the Ella System.
[Detailed: WC4, Scene 3240A]

[Ella System]
Col. Blair and a wingman, flying Lances, escort the BWS Intrepid through the Ella System. They engage three groups of Terran Confederation forces: a Caernaven-class frigate escorted by eight HellcatVs, a Tallahassee-class cruiser escorted by four Hellcat Vs and four Longbows and a Sheffield-type destroyer escorted by eight Bearcats.
[Detailed: WC4, Mission Ella 1]

[Ella System]
With a seven minute lead on the TCS Vesuvius, the BWS Intrepid heads towards Jump Point Aleph 3 then switches course towards Jump Point Aleph 6, through the Ella System's asteroid field. Vice Admiral Wilford orders the remaining Border Worlds escort ships to pull off and return to Callimachus to pick up any surviving pilots. Lt. Col. Marshall leads a force of eighteen Border Worlds fighters against the Vesuvius. Only six return to the Intrepid before it enters the asteroid field and jumps to Orestes. The Vesuvius takes damage trying to pursue the Intrepid through the system's asteroid field.
[Detailed: WC4N, pp.319-322]

[Orestes System]
The Intrepid jumps into the system, closely pursued by the Vesuvius.
[Detailed: WC4, Scene 3300A]

[Bridge, TCS Vesuvius, Orestes System]
Rear Admiral Tolwyn is informed that the BWS Intrepid is closing on their position. Tolwyn orders that the Vesuvius come about and engage the Border Worlds ship.
[Detailed: WC4, Scene 3330A]

[CIC, BWS Intrepid, Orestes System]
Seeing the Vesuvius come about, Col. Blair orders a scramble.
[Detailed: WC4, Scene 3330A]

[Orestes System]
Col. Blair and a wingman, flying Lances, engage the TCS Vesuvius' escorts, which consist of two wings of four Hellcat Vs each.
[Detailed: WC4, Mission Orestes 4]

[Orestes System]
The BWS Mt. St. Helens jumps in and engages the TCS Vesuvius.
[Detailed: WC4, Scene 3370A]

[CIC, BWS Intrepid, Orestes System]
Captain Eisen contacts the carrier, informing the senior officers of the TCS Vesuvius' weak points. Eisen orders Col. Blair to disable the Vesuvius' turrets.
[Detailed: WC4, Scene 3370A]

[Orestes System]
Col. Blair and a wingman, flying Lances, engage the TCS Vesuvius' escorts, which consist of three wings of four Hellcat Vs each.
[Detailed: WC4, Mission Orestes 5]

[Orestes System]
Vice Admiral Wilford orders that Orestes' sector command be informed of the situation. The BWS Princeton contacts the Intrepid, reporting its status. The Intrepid continues at flank speed to Orestes orbit, where it launches a shuttle carrying 34 additional pilots for the Princeton. Intrepid slingshots out towards the Vesuvius, planning to launch a final combined strike using her torpedoes, her fighter wing and the 64 fighters from the Princeton.The TCS Vesuvius jumps to the Sol System. Captain Eisen orders that the BWS Mt. St. Helens and the BWS Intrepid follow it.
[Detailed: WC4, Scene 3410A]
[Detailed: WC4N, p.322-325]

[Launch Deck, Sol System]
Chief Tech Sykes offers to equip Col. Blair's fighter with the captured flash-pak. Blair agrees.
[Detailed: WC4, Scene 3410B & 3410D]

[Bridge, TCS Vesuvius, Sol System]
Rear Admiral Tolwyn contacts Col. Blair on the Intrepid to gloat, pointing out that the Mt. St. Helens is too damaged to stay in the fight. Tolwyn orders Seether to kill Blair.
[Detailed: WC4, Scene 3440A]

[CIC, BWS Intrepid, Sol System]
Captain Eisen informs Blair that the Mt. St. Helens has taken too much damage to continue fighting. Col. Blair tells Eisen that he plans to use the flash-pak to destroy the Vesuvius.
[Detailed: WC4, Scenes 3460A & 3460B]

[Sol System]
Commander Toliver convinces Wilford to allow Blair to lead the strike. Lt. Col. Marshall commands the Intrepid's fighter compliment. The Vesuvius launches fighters from both of her bays. Sections of Border Worlds Hellcat Vs off the Princeton mass-fire their entire missile load outs at the Terran Confederation forces forming up. Five surviving Terran Confederation Hellcat's return fire in the same manner. Suddenly, the TCS Mt. St. Helens jumps in. Captain Eisen contacts the Intrepid, offering Vice Admiral Wilford assistance and providing IFF codes and specifications for the Vesuvius class ships. The Vesuvius turns to engage the Mt. St. Helens. A fierce close-range engagement between the two carriers ensues, leaving the Vesuvius severely damaged and the Mt. St. Helens crippled. Col. Blair and a wingman, flying Lances, engage wings of four Hellcat Vs each. Col. Blair makes us of his cloak to destroy two Terran Confederation Lances. Lt. Col. Marshall joins him in destroying a third. Col. Seether identifies Blair and contacts him, offering him a chance for a dogfight. The two dogfight alongside the Vesuvius, almost destroying Blair's fighter. Marshall jumps into the fight, distracting Seether but taking a crippling blow himself. As Seether turns to finish Marshall, Blair hurls himself forward using the mine trick, firing his guns and then destroying Seether's fighter with a dumb-fire missile. Blair moves in on the Vesuvius' flight deck and drops his flashpak, destroying the ship.
[Detailed: WC4N, p.325-332]
[Detailed: WC4, Mission Sol 1]
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Dragon1 said:
Well, Paulsen wasn't Tolwyn, but Paulsen worked for Tolwyn. Paulsen's attitude was that they weren't from "...any pure stock...". It seemed that most of the upper Confed command believed that the Border Worlders were less important than the members of the core worlds. Vagabond mentions that the Border Worlds had been "dumped on" since the war ended. According to other threads, the WC4 novel depicts the Great Assembly as showing some bigotry towards the Border Worlds. If Tolwyn didn't have anything against the Border Worlders, I do think that he thought of them as genetically inferior.
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Actually, they were a convenient bogeyman - they had malcontents among them, were able to resist effectively, and they were seen as wild cards as far back as the beginning of the war. Paulsen's an autocratic snob from a rich family that got their holdings wiped out during the Battle of Earth; the R-K facilities were smashed, which removed most of his family power in the process. No longer could he help facilitate the money-transfers that the Black Lance required him for in the early days, and that's part of why he was so expendable after the Lexington incident.

The Border Worlds AND most of Confed would've been wiped out by Bioconvergence - the Border Worlds were a necessary sacrifice, as were most of the Confederation's population. Their genetics weren't as big a deal as their ability to serve as a training grounds for the Black Lance, and as a convenient target for Confed to smash... at least until they discovered the bioconvergence plague ravaging their worlds, by which time it'd be too late for most of the Confederation's human population.
 
LOAF...

That's a great thing to see. I was never able to put together how the game and novel would fit together but that clears it up perfectly. Thanks!
 
Paulsen was definitely a bigot, but I never got the impression that it was personal for Tolwyn. The Border Worlders were a convenient enemy, but they were only the first of many. I think he regarded the bulk of humanity as genetically inferior, not just the Border Worlders.

Best, Raptor
 
I respectfully disagree

The question we have to ask ourselves is what is the relative economic power of the two interstellar nations? I have a sneaking suspicion that the Bordworlds have a stronger economy and thus actually field a more powerfull fleet.

I suspect we severly underestimate the BWS naval forces, we can not extrapolate from the ships we see them poses in the game and the novel into a complete understanding of BWS strength, because there are going to be other systems and other actions

Lastly as for the issue of captured ships and who ended up with what. while the Intrepid may have been in Sol at the end, I doubt she was a confed ship, if anything was going on, the intrepid and BWS personel were cross training with confed as part of "unity building exercies" or perhaps due to her damaged state maybe she was left to confed as a face saving gesture while the BWS forces kept the Princeton.

Technicly ships captured during a state of war remain in the possesion of the capturing force unless specified otherwise during surrender/treaty/armistice negotiations. This is why at the end of the war of 1812 the british retained possesion of the former USS President. I doubt that due to the nasty nature of the conflict and a desire by both sides to sweep it under the carpet there was little desire for both sides to spend an inordinate amount of time fighting over who got to keep what.

I see no compelling evidence which would suggest that the BWS forces were not still in possesion of the princeton, plus the deralict lexington was in BW territory.

Again that is an aside, the truth to the matter is that the decision of the conflict will rely on the various economies in play.
 
The question we have to ask ourselves is what is the relative economic power of the two interstellar nations? I have a sneaking suspicion that the Bordworlds have a stronger economy and thus actually field a more powerfull fleet.
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I disagree with regards to their respective economies. Consider that the FRL has legitimately been an independant nation for over twenty years, and has acted as one for even longer... while the Union of Border Worlds has existed for only a matter of weeks. Further, the Border Worlds is the region *most* damaged by the Kilrathi War... while the Landreich never suffered under Kilrathi rule or even suffered from anything more than a few passing attempts at invasion.

I suspect we severly underestimate the BWS naval forces, we can not extrapolate from the ships we see them poses in the game and the novel into a complete understanding of BWS strength, because there are going to be other systems and other actions
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Consider Taggart's shock that the Border Worlds are fielding a *single* carrier group. There's not a massive, unspoken Border Worlds militia fleet out there. We're talking about a military that can't even manage to rearm its own flagship -- Intrepid had to travel to the Landreich to take on new fighters and to conduct repairs.

Lastly as for the issue of captured ships and who ended up with what. while the Intrepid may have been in Sol at the end, I doubt she was a confed ship, if anything was going on, the intrepid and BWS personel were cross training with confed as part of "unity building exercies" or perhaps due to her damaged state maybe she was left to confed as a face saving gesture while the BWS forces kept the Princeton.

Technicly ships captured during a state of war remain in the possesion of the capturing force unless specified otherwise during surrender/treaty/armistice negotiations. This is why at the end of the war of 1812 the british retained possesion of the former USS President. I doubt that due to the nasty nature of the conflict and a desire by both sides to sweep it under the carpet there was little desire for both sides to spend an inordinate amount of time fighting over who got to keep what.
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It runs counter to what we actually see, though. We know for certain that the Mt. St. Helens was returned to the Confederation... and the end of WCIV highly suggests the same of the Intrepid (training Confed pilots in the Sol System).

Besides, units like the Princeton were never truly run by strictly Border Worlds forces - they relied on a Confed crew that had been convinced that Blair and company were right about the existence of a conspiracy. There's no reason, in my mind, that these people would automatically become loyal to another nation -- Blair, Panther, Hawk, Eisen, Wilford, etc. certainly didn't.

I see no compelling evidence which would suggest that the BWS forces were not still in possesion of the princeton, plus the deralict lexington was in BW territory.
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The Lexington isn't a derelict - it was just left unable to launch fighters. She could (and presumably did) limp back to drydock (and according to the WCP web site, Confed eventually turns her into a monument/museum).
 
I can't really see either side fighting a war solely for the sake of conquest - nor do I see either side having that kind of power projection. If there were any sort of conflict, it'd be a dispute over one or two border systems...
 
Bandit LOAF said:
I can't really see either side fighting a war solely for the sake of conquest - nor do I see either side having that kind of power projection. If there were any sort of conflict, it'd be a dispute over one or two border systems...
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Uh a Bhantkara Fleet Carrier is what you want for power projection and that's what Landreich has....it would be a major show of force in any dispute your thinking.....ah the Mjonlier, the ulitmate trump card in the backwater parts of human space other than confed :p
 
Evil Imperial said:
Uh a Bhantkara Fleet Carrier is what you want for power projection and that's what Landreich has....it would be a major show of force in any dispute your thinking.....ah the Mjonlier, the ulitmate trump card in the backwater parts of human space other than confed :p
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It's just ONE carrier - granted, it's a big one that would carry a full fighter detachment and has some decent anti-fighter defenses... but it's still one carrier. To make use of it, you'd still need cruisers, destroyers, and smaller support ships as escorts. The Landreich may also have several of the scratch-buitl Tarawa-style escort carriers, but power projection requires the ability to stay on station for some time.. and the escort carriers are still a little lacking in that regard, from what we've seen.

A carrier can only be in one system at a time - to fight an interstellar war, you have to cover a variety of fronts, which is part of why the Kilrathi War took so damned long. Beyond which, neither the Landreich or the UBW have the time or resources to engage in such a senseless sort of battle, especially given that there were rogue Kilrathi to worry about before the Nephilim arrived - and with the bugs showing up everywhere, no time to worry about conquests anyways.
 
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