The Alien wormholes
- Thread starter Jonny2284
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I think that ships just fly straight through. In the Prophecy intro, the Kraken comes through right after the towers form the wormhole. I doubt that it would already be traveling in hyperspace or whatever, if the wormhole on the other side wasn't open yet.
So I think it's either straight through, or the flight between the wormholes takes a VERY short time.
[This message has been edited by Earthworm (edited March 24, 2000).]
So I think it's either straight through, or the flight between the wormholes takes a VERY short time.
[This message has been edited by Earthworm (edited March 24, 2000).]
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Quarto
Unknown Enemy
When you open a wormhole, you enter a "tunnel" of sorts. These tunnels can take quite a while to get through... on the other hand, they can be so short as to make things seem instantaenous - it depends on the strenght of the link between the two points. Either way, there is a tunnel.
I'm not too sure about when the other side opens up... from everything we've seen, it would appear as though it opens right before the ship exits. Which would make sense, considering the difficulties of keeping a wormhole open for an extended period of time (ref: WCP).
I'm not too sure about when the other side opens up... from everything we've seen, it would appear as though it opens right before the ship exits. Which would make sense, considering the difficulties of keeping a wormhole open for an extended period of time (ref: WCP).
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
How so? Its artificial origins don't change anything. In fact, I imagine that this is the perfect example of a very long tunnel - the link between the two ends is so weak that the rift in Kilrah wasn't even detected until the Nephilem showed up.
Nope. I decided I'm too damned lazy
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Death's Head
Spaceman
I've heard a mention of bugs using low-band jump tech.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Uh... why?
In fact, everything points towards the opposite conclusion. Think about it. If opening one side automatically opens the other... then why the hell would the bugs build the gateway in Kilrah? Wouldn't it be easier for them to do so in their own system? If opening one end opens the other too, then the above solution would work perfectly. But obviously, that wasn't the case. Ergo, the two ends have to be opened separately. Ergo, there is a variable-lenght tunnel between them.
In fact, everything points towards the opposite conclusion. Think about it. If opening one side automatically opens the other... then why the hell would the bugs build the gateway in Kilrah? Wouldn't it be easier for them to do so in their own system? If opening one end opens the other too, then the above solution would work perfectly. But obviously, that wasn't the case. Ergo, the two ends have to be opened separately. Ergo, there is a variable-lenght tunnel between them.
Knight
Spaceman
You guys aren't thinking strait
Think towards the end of the game, like the final mission. Dekker says that there is a big fleet massing, and after you go back and refuel, which wouldn't take very long, say an approximate time of 15-30 mins (I never looked to see how far they navs are apart), so either the fleet took a long time to mass and the jump's instantainous, or they started jumping about hte time Dekker left, and were just getting there as you shut down #7. Though, if it was generating that much damn heat, I don't see how one gate's goign to hold it open.
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Think towards the end of the game, like the final mission. Dekker says that there is a big fleet massing, and after you go back and refuel, which wouldn't take very long, say an approximate time of 15-30 mins (I never looked to see how far they navs are apart), so either the fleet took a long time to mass and the jump's instantainous, or they started jumping about hte time Dekker left, and were just getting there as you shut down #7. Though, if it was generating that much damn heat, I don't see how one gate's goign to hold it open.
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Striking a man down with your blade is clean and honorable. Shooting him in the back from the darkness of an alley and hurrying to blame it on another was something else altogether.--Darth Vader
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Death's Head
Spaceman
Maybe it would hold open, but not for long. Confed wanted the wormhole shutdown as soon as posible so the bugs can't send any more ships through. The extra towers I'd think would serve to spread the heat over a wider area, reducing the maintenance, where on a smaller number of cooling towers, the maintenance level would be higher.
I thought they built the gate to keep the wormhole open indefinately Quarto, and not to enable a jump passage. I'm sure those tower units plowed ahead of the Kraken for a reason, perhaps they made it possible for the ship to jump such a great distance.
But then, one theory of wormholes is that if space is curved, a wormhole would link opposing sides of the curve by creating a shortcut. Seems much faster to travel say over the north pole from the mainland US to the middle of Russia than it would be to follow a strait line of latitude.
I thought they built the gate to keep the wormhole open indefinately Quarto, and not to enable a jump passage. I'm sure those tower units plowed ahead of the Kraken for a reason, perhaps they made it possible for the ship to jump such a great distance.
But then, one theory of wormholes is that if space is curved, a wormhole would link opposing sides of the curve by creating a shortcut. Seems much faster to travel say over the north pole from the mainland US to the middle of Russia than it would be to follow a strait line of latitude.
Knight
Spaceman
Exactly, and after you blow the hell out of the 7th tower, then start high-tailin' it, you see a Dreadnaught start to come through, which indicates that the jump isn't instant, so there is a lenght of travel in there someplace.
Quarto, What would be the point of having one wormhole open all the time (the one in Kilrah), and then having to fire up another one on the otherside, everytime you wanted to send a ship through? As we have seen, the bugs are very efficent, meaning that they would make things to their advantage, as in leaving both sides open.
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HTML Assistant: WC Space Command
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Striking a man down with your blade is clean and honorable. Shooting him in the back from the darkness of an alley and hurrying to blame it on another was something else altogether.--Darth Vader
Quarto, What would be the point of having one wormhole open all the time (the one in Kilrah), and then having to fire up another one on the otherside, everytime you wanted to send a ship through? As we have seen, the bugs are very efficent, meaning that they would make things to their advantage, as in leaving both sides open.
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HTML Assistant: WC Space Command
Administrator: UBW 5th Fleet
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Striking a man down with your blade is clean and honorable. Shooting him in the back from the darkness of an alley and hurrying to blame it on another was something else altogether.--Darth Vader
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Death's Head
Spaceman
But if a wormhole were open, as it seems the second never was, but if it were, it would be like an Enigma sector-ish battle that lasts a decade and they would have to create senarios that dealt with that.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Aren't thinking straight?
You confirm everything I said, and then tell me I'm not thinking straight?
The fleet wouldn't take a long time to mass, for the very simple reason that they didn't have a long time. They knew what was happening on the other side, so they'd have been jumping in like lemmings.
There is one rather unsettling detail about this... we saw one or two destroyers come out on our side, but not quite make it... then the gate closed... well, the gate on the other side must also have blown, or else we would have seen more bugs jump in right the next day... but if the gate on the other side also closed, then there is (was) a whole Nephilem fleet stuck inside the jump tunnel. Not even the bugs deserve that fate (if you don't see anything scary about that fate, picture yourself stuck in the same room with Maniac for as long as it takes for both of you to die. "So, let me tell you that story again...").
The fleet wouldn't take a long time to mass, for the very simple reason that they didn't have a long time. They knew what was happening on the other side, so they'd have been jumping in like lemmings.
There is one rather unsettling detail about this... we saw one or two destroyers come out on our side, but not quite make it... then the gate closed... well, the gate on the other side must also have blown, or else we would have seen more bugs jump in right the next day... but if the gate on the other side also closed, then there is (was) a whole Nephilem fleet stuck inside the jump tunnel. Not even the bugs deserve that fate (if you don't see anything scary about that fate, picture yourself stuck in the same room with Maniac for as long as it takes for both of you to die. "So, let me tell you that story again...").
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Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Dammit, I knew I should have clicked "refresh" before posting
.
Whether or not the bugs have both sides open or not is not something I'm debating... of course, the whole point of a link between the two places was to make things easier for ships jumping in. And of course, they would have to have gates on both ends - if all that was needed was one gate, it wouldna have been in Kilrah. And of course, it would be to their advantage to hold both gates open - I imagine that at this huge distance, the energy cost of keeping the gate open is smaller than that of opening the gate in the first place.
Frankly, i don't see what this has to do with me. All I'm saying is that 1. The two ends have to be opened separately, and 2. There is a tunnel between them.
Whether or not the bugs have both sides open or not is not something I'm debating... of course, the whole point of a link between the two places was to make things easier for ships jumping in. And of course, they would have to have gates on both ends - if all that was needed was one gate, it wouldna have been in Kilrah. And of course, it would be to their advantage to hold both gates open - I imagine that at this huge distance, the energy cost of keeping the gate open is smaller than that of opening the gate in the first place.
I'm not sure if I get what you mean, Death's Head.
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Knight
Spaceman
I thought I understood what you were saying, but you've lost me now
Ok, what you're saying is that they have to be opened seperately. I disagree. Think of it as a door. You don't have to open one side of the door, just to open the otherside. You open it, its open, all the way through. The defination of a wormhole is a tear in the space-time continuium (SP?). It doesn't matter if the universe is curved or not, a wormhole is a direct link from one point in space to another, with only a short distance connecting them.
Now that I re-read some of these posts, I think I understand better. My first post on this was way of course, because I thought you were discussing the time distance between the two, not the physical distance between the places. I'll try to keep my posts closer to the current topic next time
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Striking a man down with your blade is clean and honorable. Shooting him in the back from the darkness of an alley and hurrying to blame it on another was something else altogether.--Darth Vader
Now that I re-read some of these posts, I think I understand better. My first post on this was way of course, because I thought you were discussing the time distance between the two, not the physical distance between the places. I'll try to keep my posts closer to the current topic next time
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HTML Assistant: WC Space Command
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Striking a man down with your blade is clean and honorable. Shooting him in the back from the darkness of an alley and hurrying to blame it on another was something else altogether.--Darth Vader
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Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Ok... I see. Well, of course a door only needs to be opened once. But I believe that the door is a wrong analogy for this. Think of it like this. Kilrah system is one room in the house. The Nephilem place is another room. The jump points at both ends are doors - but there is a corridor between the two doors. And when you open the door to leave Kilrah, the door at the other end of the corridor does not open automatically.
Every time a ship jumps, we see it come out of this weird, colourful "tunnel". If, on the other hand, the two jump points were linked directly, then wouldn't we see a sort of "hole in the wall" instead? As in, we'd see the stars/whatever on the other side of the jump point. I hope you can understand those last two sentences, because they're really not very clear.
Oh, and as for the "tear in the continuum" comment, that's close, but not quite. Let's see if I can explain better. To create this "tear", the two points first have to meet (this happens due to the bending of the time-space continuum; the bending happens because of gravitational pull - this is why black holes can have much further reaching jump points). But if they met, then the universe would be really messed up, because it would be overlapping itself. So, the two points never actually meet, they simply get close to each other - how close, depends on their gravitational pull, of course. This variable distance between them is the "tunnel" that I keep talking about.
Note that I'm no astrophysicist, so if there's something wrong with what I said above, don't bite my head off.
I can only say things the way I remember them.
Every time a ship jumps, we see it come out of this weird, colourful "tunnel". If, on the other hand, the two jump points were linked directly, then wouldn't we see a sort of "hole in the wall" instead? As in, we'd see the stars/whatever on the other side of the jump point. I hope you can understand those last two sentences, because they're really not very clear.
Oh, and as for the "tear in the continuum" comment, that's close, but not quite. Let's see if I can explain better. To create this "tear", the two points first have to meet (this happens due to the bending of the time-space continuum; the bending happens because of gravitational pull - this is why black holes can have much further reaching jump points). But if they met, then the universe would be really messed up, because it would be overlapping itself. So, the two points never actually meet, they simply get close to each other - how close, depends on their gravitational pull, of course. This variable distance between them is the "tunnel" that I keep talking about.
Note that I'm no astrophysicist, so if there's something wrong with what I said above, don't bite my head off.
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Quarto: Well a wormhole is basically a black hole and a white hole. A white hole being a "time-reversed" black hole. ie it does the opposite of what a black hole does. Now if you enter a black hole you get torn apart since the difference in gravity between one point and the other is really huge. So I figure if you open only the black hole end of a wormhole without opening the white hole end at the same time, you get ripped apart and you can't open the white hole end anymore. In fact you can't do much of anything anymore. So, you'd have to open both ends so that when you go in you immediately get thrown out.
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Mess with the best, die like the rest.
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Mess with the best, die like the rest.
I think Quarto has the right idea going. Too bad I can't scan pictures in, that would make it so much easier to explain. When you really get into hyperspace, it helps to be able to see four dimensions and all that. Here's my attempt.
Example: the Neph's fleet massing point is located on one face of a hypercube. On the opposite side is Kilrah. Due to some quirk of spacetime, the two ends of the jump node are closer to each other than the rest of normal space (making a "dent" in the surface of the hypercube), however this is not seen in "realspace" because this is a hypercube and us apes are only looking at three dimensions, not the total four (or more) of the hypercube. When a jumpgate is opened, those two points are connected. Pretty much what Quarto said, with a few additions. Next: the nature of a jumpgate. Like a corridoor and doors, except THE DOOR IS THE COORIDOOR. Think of it not as a door with space in between, but as a tunnel with walls that collapse to the point where the hole can no longer be detected (except by those with the ability to find/navigate them; pilgrims, "bugs", etc). When a jump drive is opened, the walls are forced apart at one end, allowing the ship inside to slingshot through the path and out the other side, with a bubble of safe expanded space moving along with it. This travel is not instant, because there is still space between the two points, and it still takes time to transverse that space, at whatever speed. (canon evidence: WC4, inside the Intrepid, when Blair is acting as captain) As the ship drops out the other side, the other end opens, and everything is cool. so they hope. I think the Bug gate was similar, except the structures on either end kept it all open at once. The possibility that the two ends were actually connected by one structure is unlikely due to the distance involved, even to the Bugs. If it was, then the generator towers on one side would have probably been rigged to be able to compensate for the other one's destruction and keep the hole open. When the one end collapsed (possibly destroying the other end as well) the majority of the gate collapsed in on itself and anything inside. Therefore, no need to be sorry for bugs stuck in jumpspace eterneally. In the best case, they were reduced to their component atoms. Worst case... not even that much was left.
Johnny: If the jumpgates DID have variable destinations, which is not supported by anything so far, then the bugs would probably have dropped a couple dozen Krakens onto Earth as soon as we wiped out their Kilrah and Proxima jumpgates. They didnt, we're still here, therefore either that doesnt happen, the bugs cant use it, or they're wasting vast amounts or resources toying with us (not likely for a race that seems to lack a sense of humor).
Steampunk: not likely, or anything in the vicinity of the jumpgate (inc. the towers!) would be sucked in. Also, the pyrotechnic effects would not escape the event horizon of the hole. Good idea though.
I know there are still a couple holes but I dont know the extent of everybodys knowledge (some of what I left unexplained is real basic) and this post is pretty long anyways. Will answer in later posts if anyone cares enough to ask.
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I don't respect your authority BECAUSE YOU HAVE NONE!!!
[This message has been edited by Chernikov (edited March 26, 2000).]
Example: the Neph's fleet massing point is located on one face of a hypercube. On the opposite side is Kilrah. Due to some quirk of spacetime, the two ends of the jump node are closer to each other than the rest of normal space (making a "dent" in the surface of the hypercube), however this is not seen in "realspace" because this is a hypercube and us apes are only looking at three dimensions, not the total four (or more) of the hypercube. When a jumpgate is opened, those two points are connected. Pretty much what Quarto said, with a few additions. Next: the nature of a jumpgate. Like a corridoor and doors, except THE DOOR IS THE COORIDOOR. Think of it not as a door with space in between, but as a tunnel with walls that collapse to the point where the hole can no longer be detected (except by those with the ability to find/navigate them; pilgrims, "bugs", etc). When a jump drive is opened, the walls are forced apart at one end, allowing the ship inside to slingshot through the path and out the other side, with a bubble of safe expanded space moving along with it. This travel is not instant, because there is still space between the two points, and it still takes time to transverse that space, at whatever speed. (canon evidence: WC4, inside the Intrepid, when Blair is acting as captain) As the ship drops out the other side, the other end opens, and everything is cool. so they hope. I think the Bug gate was similar, except the structures on either end kept it all open at once. The possibility that the two ends were actually connected by one structure is unlikely due to the distance involved, even to the Bugs. If it was, then the generator towers on one side would have probably been rigged to be able to compensate for the other one's destruction and keep the hole open. When the one end collapsed (possibly destroying the other end as well) the majority of the gate collapsed in on itself and anything inside. Therefore, no need to be sorry for bugs stuck in jumpspace eterneally. In the best case, they were reduced to their component atoms. Worst case... not even that much was left.
Johnny: If the jumpgates DID have variable destinations, which is not supported by anything so far, then the bugs would probably have dropped a couple dozen Krakens onto Earth as soon as we wiped out their Kilrah and Proxima jumpgates. They didnt, we're still here, therefore either that doesnt happen, the bugs cant use it, or they're wasting vast amounts or resources toying with us (not likely for a race that seems to lack a sense of humor).
Steampunk: not likely, or anything in the vicinity of the jumpgate (inc. the towers!) would be sucked in. Also, the pyrotechnic effects would not escape the event horizon of the hole. Good idea though.
I know there are still a couple holes but I dont know the extent of everybodys knowledge (some of what I left unexplained is real basic) and this post is pretty long anyways. Will answer in later posts if anyone cares enough to ask.
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I don't respect your authority BECAUSE YOU HAVE NONE!!!
[This message has been edited by Chernikov (edited March 26, 2000).]
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Ah, a more advanced explanation. Yes, that's close enough to the way I see it, except for that jump tunnel collapsing in on itself thing. But I guess that makes sense.
Variable destinations? Whoa... you mean, we drifted right off the original topic? Sorry. No, WC jump points do not have variable destinations. Otherwise, the whole Terran-Kilrathi war would have taken place in just two systems...
Steampunk: At the risk of sounding stupid, what the hell is a white hole? I've never heard of those.
BTW, wormholes do not necessarily have anything to do with black holes. In fact, in the area of the WC universe that we're talking about, there seems to only be one black hole, in the Enigma System.
Variable destinations? Whoa... you mean, we drifted right off the original topic? Sorry. No, WC jump points do not have variable destinations. Otherwise, the whole Terran-Kilrathi war would have taken place in just two systems...
Steampunk: At the risk of sounding stupid, what the hell is a white hole? I've never heard of those.
BTW, wormholes do not necessarily have anything to do with black holes. In fact, in the area of the WC universe that we're talking about, there seems to only be one black hole, in the Enigma System.