Standoff Overture

Needaham45

Spaceman
Hey guys - remember me?

For those of you who don't I'm Michael Mahadeen - musical composer of UE and Standoff. I want this thread to be about the "Theme" (Its more of an overture than a theme, so I'm gonna call it by my final title - Standoff Overture). As a musician I'm always looking for comments on my work - good, bad, campartively to something else... whatever. If I'm doing something good I like to know so I can keep doing it. If something needs work I like to know so that I can fix it.

So please, leave any comments you have here. I'm also available to answer any questions about it if you're wondering (in terms of a theoretical analysis, or just what each thing in it is). I'll answer whatever questions any of you have.
 
Okay, I'll try to give a little bit of useful feedback.

The only real change that I might want to urge you to consider making would be in the beginning with the voice and strings and oboe/clarinet sounding woodwind. I wonder if it might be a little better if the chord changes between the strings were a little more largo and connected, rather than having the audible breaks between the chords. That might solidify the sort of ethereal sound you are creating at that point.

Also, I wonder if instead of the woodwind, a french horn or euphoium sort of soft mid- or low-brass might sound a little more... epic, maybe?

The theme is very multi-layered and complex. I can tell you put a lot of work into the point and counterpoint of this piece. It definately preserves the sort of WC I and WC II spirit to the music, and is that a softer love theme interlude I heard, as well. In that section, have you experimented with having the bells an octive lower than they are? I just wondered what it might sound like, but it could add a little more depth to the slow, ringing sensation of that section.

I also like the building sense as the song nears the end, perhaps there is something you could do to maintain that same level of multi-latyerdness, perhaps with a continuous basso profundo playing underneath the chasing movement you have. Also, I wonder what a low ringing bell might sound like added to the last chord.

Overall, very nicely done. I've just thrown out some ideas, take them or leave them for what there worth.

And thank you for being part of the team that is making Standoff come together. I think I speak for many when I say we're greatful for your contribution!

Thanks, and I can't wait to hear your music in-game!
 
The beginning I was playing with a lot actually. I really didn't want it to be a continuous line. I tried it, but I felt like the introduction of the WC1 theme would be more effective with the breaks - I felt like it would leave the listener wanting to hear the rest. Considering that's a theme everyone should know I was hoping putting the breaks it would help build some anticipation.

And I also experimented with which solo instrument to use there. I tried a horn and a cello as well as the clarinet. The clarinet in the low register has such a full, mellow, golden sound. The cello was nice, but it didn't stand out enough from the violins, violas, and chorus that were sustaining the 5ths. The horn sounded epic - too epic. I wanted it to be a mellow, low, dark, sweet, yet woody and warm sound that only a woodwind can provide. The idea was to draw as much contrast between the intro and the 1st theme (the Standoff Fanfare) as possible.

Another part of the use for the clarinet right away was to show the difference in style between UE and Standoff. In the UE orchestra I didn't even have a clarinet. The UE orchestra was strings, brass, percussion, and some synth pads. I was writing for the MIDI sounds, without keeping real instruments in mind (which is also what the did in WC1 and 2 - look at the original midis... its really obvious). With Standoff, I wanted a more orchestral, rather than military sound, so I decided to use a full symphony orchestra, plus some parts (its called a Film Orchestra), as well as the addition of 4 part chorus and 2 guitars (One acoustic, one electric). I wanted to show the difference in sound right away so I wanted to use an instrument that was completely absent in UE and would bring out the new symphonic style - thus the clarinet. Besides... my second instrument was clarinet (first was piano) so I'm a little biased :p

The bells I did try down an octave and you couldn't here them over the rest of the orchestra in that range. That section's just too broad and majestic - the bells needed to be that high to be heard.

The last section of the piece was supposed to be very martial - miltary-esq. Yes symphonic, but I didn't want it to be too complex. Usually a march or military piece isn't as layered as a symphonic work. While the final section certainly isn't a march (its a little too fast and the meter isn't a strict duple feel), it does have a march-like quality to it. Layering there just wouldn't create the effect I wanted.

And there is a bell on the last chord - well - a chime. It just cuts off short with the rest of the orchestra - I didn't want anything ringing over.

I do thank you for your suggestions. This is the wonderful thing about music - everyone would do it their own way for their own reasons. I hope I gave you some insight into the reasons I did some of the things I did. If you have any further questions or ideas, please, don't hesitate.
 
Maybe you intended it, but there was a section (I haven't listened in over a week, because I listened to it right after you released it to us internally) where the snare drum seemed to be a little off. During the 'march' section, the snare sounds a little too quick. Maybe it's just me. I don't have the musical terminology to explain exactly what I'm trying to point out, so I'll just leave it at "it sounds kinda off".

Sorry if that's not very helpful.

Oh, and it could use more metal. ^m^ ^m^
 
Hey, you're welcome. It looks like you've thought things out very thouroghly. Like I said, I look forward to hearing your music in-game. Great work!
 
Wow, I just listened to the completed version for the first time.

Mike your skills are growing at a phenomenal rate, you're going to be famous some day.
I especially like the last thirty seconds, I found my head nodding along rather forcefully.
 
overmortal said:
Maybe you intended it, but there was a section (I haven't listened in over a week, because I listened to it right after you released it to us internally) where the snare drum seemed to be a little off. During the 'march' section, the snare sounds a little too quick. Maybe it's just me. I don't have the musical terminology to explain exactly what I'm trying to point out, so I'll just leave it at "it sounds kinda off".

Sorry if that's not very helpful.

Oh, and it could use more metal. ^m^ ^m^

I know exactly what your talking about. There's flams in the snare drum part at that section - it creates an almost "gallop" feel. I felt like it pushed the music foward.

And I won't touch metal - at least not for a Wing Commander game. I don't know flying through space always seemed more orchestral to me. Actually, before they got John Williams to do Star Wars they were thinking about using disco for it because it was popular at the time. I feel like the traditional orchestral sound is more time-less. Besides, I just don't see anything but orchestral music fitting this style of game. However... there will be some stylistic suprises along the way... but that's all I'll say about that... ;)
 
Eh, actually, I was only kidding about the metal. It would get old pretty quick. I was a little dissappointed in the musical selection from Halo2 that was done by Breaking Benjamin. Good music now, sure, but fifteen years from now? Meh

Also, I understand the 'gallop' of the march theme. What I was referring to was how the snare hits went together. From what I could hear, it sounded like two beats almost on top of each other. It sounded to my ear like it would either have been three (which, if it was, I just didn't hear it), or two spaced just slightly further apart. Maybe I was just hearing it funny.
 
Looking foward to your music, specially since Q and Eder keep babling about how awesome an diferent are the music in the cutscenes :p
 
To be honest I liked UE`s music more than Standoff`s overture.I dont know why,maybe cause Im used to UE`s music ,in the beginning I didnt like it either :p
 
I disagree - this overture is quite superior to the Unknown Enemy music; it's a shame there isn't better midi rendering available to you. I was expecting a somewhat darker tone (a la Vengence of the Kilrathi or Price of Freedom) but what you have is very, very good.
 
Bob McDob said:
it's a shame there isn't better midi rendering available to you.
We'd kind of prefer an orchestra, actually ;).

KillerWave said:
Looking foward to your music, specially since Q and Eder keep babling about how awesome an diferent are the music in the cutscenes
Yeah, just wait and hear ;). The Prologue's music will be very special indeed, and very unique as far as WC games are concerned. I'm listening to an MP3 of the Prologue intro right now, and I still can't believe how well Michael was able to integrate the <censored> elements of it into the whole thing.
 
I think I'd rather hear what you have to say about this. It's always easy to field questions about your music, but it's far more telling to hear what you were actually doing.

It's hard to comment on some things, because I don't know how I'm supposed to be digesting them. Am I supposed to be envisioning the beginning of the game with credits sprawling across the screen, or am I to accept the fact that I'm sitting in my living room listening to an mp3? I'll base things on the latter since you seem to be leaning towards this being an overture.

The beginning is pretty boring. It's an entire thirty seconds of slow, unrelated material. Yeah, it's neat that it brings us into the Wing Commander world that way, but it seems really out of place. I think you're setting the listener up for a preconceived expectation of Wing Commander music and then suddenly jarring them into something completely different. Maybe this was your goal, but you might want to rethink that.

First Section: I wish there was a theme here, since it appears to be the main theme. It just kind of seems like an eclectic jumble of rhythms and instruments. The second theme is nicer, it seems more controled. The gallop makes sense.

Transitions nicely, like WC1, into the tranquil section

Second Section: Again, not really sure what the theme is here. What's the most important line here, the guitar? A lot of the voices seem to be moving in unison here too. I think it's way too long as well since it goes on for almost 2 minutes. I mean it climaxes nicely, although again I'm not really sure what the important part is, it's kind of just whole bunch of percussion and trills all at the same volume level.

Third Section: I think this is nice. It's pretty obvious what the theme is, but again I'm just having a problem with the balance. The percussion is deafening, and I'm not sure that's what you want, it gets pretty monotonous since it goes on for about 40 seconds. Flute theme is nice, but overpowered by the percussion. I think the ending is awkward.

Biggest things to fix I think are the Balance, and the Proportions. I realize it's supposed to be a medley of the different themes you've created for the game, but it feels disjointed. Maybe you could find some way to tie things together better. Plus, I'm not quite sure about your logic of scoring this for a symphony orchestra since you're instead scoring it for a computer.
 
Great work, Mike ... but remove the clarinet and add a euphonium! (*euphonium-ist bias talking*)

0:00 - 0:29 - the breaks sounded ... odd to me. Mebbe a little more reverb or a soft bass to play through the rests ... fading too =) Great buildup from :22-:26, but accenting the notes would enhance the effect ...

0:30 - 0:56 - the transition takes some getting used to - good theme

0:57 - 1:08 - Nice little quick piece - and I happen to think the snare drum flams fit perfectly

1:09 - 1:20 - I really like this theme

1:21 - 1:56 - Nice little interlude, but IMHO it would sound better if it was a bit more ... minimalist (bringing down/simplifying the background ...)

1:57 - 2:16 - Yay, harmonies!

2:17 - 2:40 - My favorite rendition of the interlude theme. Buildup is effective.

2:41 - 3:04 - The interlude's climax ... maybe if the rest was a little bit quieter, this would have more impact ... the buildup here sounds a bit odd to me ...

3:05 - 3:56 - For whatever weird reason, the horn section of this section remind me of Jesus Christ Superstar where Pilate is talking to Jesus - before the 39 lashes. Cool "martial" theme, but the run with the four instruments at the end doesn't do much for me ...

If the rest of the music in Standoff are this good, than we'll be well set =)

I agree with you that orchestral music is better than metal for space combat scenes - *they better convey (and influence) emotions*, and will sound good for a LONG time. Also, doing so allows for a more varied feel of the score ...

(Request: can you send me the MIDI version of the song? (it was mentioned that you use MIDI sequencers/instruments to compose) I'd like to see if it'd sound much different on my synth equipment ... something I've wanted to do to UE for a long time :D )
 
I didn't want to say anything at first because I know I've been overly critical of the sound quality in the past, but I have to say it again. For me, the biggest shortcoming of the piece is the rather poor quality of the instrument rendering - I understand that it's not easy getting the latest and greatest music samples, but there's only a certain level you can go before low sound quality detracts from everything that's good about even the best of music pieces.

I'm sorry to say I only listened to the theme/overture once. I did like the soft WC-theme re-interpretation in the introduction, but I also thought it felt out of place with the idea of an overture. I'm under the impression that overtures have an air of grandeur to them, like the overture for the WC movie, thought I understand this might not necessarily be so.

Additionally, I recall the drums towards the end of the piece (I listened to the MP3 a few days ago) to be too strong and it overwhelms the rest of the music. I feel that percussion should complement music and not really take up the 'foreground'.

I apologise for being so critical - maybe I'm just used to more professional sounding video game remixes. But remixing is nothing compared to original compositions. I'm also waiting until I play the actual game and have a better feel for the music. I didn't like UE's music that much either, but eventually I managed to enjoy some parts of it.
 
So much to comment on - lets see... we'll go in order:

I can tell you all about what I was thinking ace, but you're a composer too. You know that if we wrote down everything we were thinking about as we were working and what we did it would take up about 10 pages :p That's why I'm more than willing to answer questions, but explaining everything I was thinking about as I went is a lot of typing. I don't mind discussing it with you one-on-one sometime though. That's easier than writing a disertation about it here.

The idea of the piece is supposed to me an overture - its a collection of various themes I've created for the game (but not all of them... some things have to be a suprise). So the answer to your question about how to listen to it - well... both. Its supposed to stand alone as a piece of music, but it is also supposed to be thought about in conjuction with the game.

I really wanted to link the piece to Wing Commander - hence the quote from what I've dubbed as the Wing Commander Fanfare at the beginning of the overture. Whenever I think Wing Commander music I think of that song first - perhaps because it was the first piece we heard back so many years ago - but its just always meant Wing Commander to me. I wanted to bring that into my piece as an introduction. I think about it as saying this is where I'm comming from - this is the universe it's all about, then the music following is one of my chapters - one of my expansions on the universe. You may say, and others may agree, that its completely unrelated, but I must argue that this is what relates us to what this game is the most - a Wing Commander game.

The reason for it being slow was to draw contrast to what comes next - an explosion of sound and color annoucing the arrival of this new chapter in an old story - a setting of the Standoff Fanfare.

The melody is in the trumpets and viola I - if you look at the score (which will be a downloadable pdf eventually, probably), they are fortissimo while most other players are no louder than a mezzo forte. I honestly must say I find it difficult to understand how it was unclear what the melody was. The only figure going on that could possibly be melodic is the figure in the trumpets. other than that there's some chords in the low strings, a triplet ostinato figure in about half the upper woodwinds and glock, and then hits in the remaining instruments (including percussion... although there is a little fillagry in the snare). There is certainly a lot going on - I wanted it to be very explosive in nature - really bring out the contrast to UE - here's what writing for an orchestra rather than synthesizer can do. It really opens up the door to a fuller, fatter, rounder, more complex, symphonic sound. That idea really governed the next section of the piece as well.

There are very few instruments in unision here - there are a few to get the tone color I wanted, but there's a lot of harmony going on. I have the guitar doing some arpeggiated chords to lay down some nice background, the strings building pyramids on the chords, and chorus on the chords. Other than that there's a melody/harmony to be found in the other instruments playing. Standoff is about the battle of Earth (at least that's my understanding based on what I've been told about the book). This section was supposed to be sad, slow, and reflective to illuminate that point. I know I spend a fair amount of time (in minutes) here - this is a very important musical idea to the whole game though. As I was writing I wasn't thinking about how much time I was filling where. I gave each of my themes a given importance, and I let the music tell me when each was done. Again, this may be because I wrote it, but I think the melody is very obvious here.

As this bit is concluding, the dynamic level and rapidness of the notes die off a good amount as we go into a section based around a decending chain of suspensions and a lot of woodwind stuff (with some strings and horn). This again continues the sad, reflective idea with a new theme, and then broadens and expands to become something very majestic. The sound in this section based on the theme introduced by the woodwinds right before it is another thing drawing contrast to UE. Something this full and grand could never have been accheived with UE's orchestration and sound. This broad, majestic section is very important to me - not just because it shows of what the orchestra is capible of, but also musically. Earth recovered after the battle - they werent' defeated - the losses were great. The dead are honored in the slow quiet woodwind figure before the broad section, and that same melody becomes some grand, majestic, bold idea. They did not die in vain - they died saving their people as heros - the theme that was used to morn them is now used to honor them in a way. And then, the terrans fight back.

This is the last theme of the piece. The drums are very important here - think of them as war drums. This is about the military of earth and the Confederation fighting back. Here we are marching off into battle in search of victory, and I think this last bit (war drums included) speaks for itself in that sense.

Perhaps the balance isn't perfect, but I think it's pretty good. And I think my choice to write it with an orchestra rather than a midi in mind wasn't so bad. I think the symphonic sound that I'm acchieving here is something more than would have ever been possible in UE, even if a synthesizer is still playing it. The hope is to eventually get a group together to at least perform this overture as I might be able to twist some arms and get the directors and groups together to do it. However, even with out that, I think the new sound writing for real instruments (with realistic ranges and parts) sounds more real than the old sound writing for fake instruments (for unrealistic ranges and parts... but the horn part is still pretty bad... I'm always very rough on the horns).

I think perhaps some of the compositional material I wrote for UE in some ways was better than Standoff's, however the orchestration and arranging of Standoff blows UE out of the water if you ask me. But that's just my opinion as composer.

I hope that brief explination provided at least a little insight ace. ZekeSulastin and Wedge, the responses to what you guys say will take much less time than the response to ace, but you'll have to wait until tomorrow as writing the reponse to his reply took a lot of work :p
 
Ok - now to take care of responding to you other guys :p

Zeke - I can send you the MIDI, however it is copyrighted material. As the composer, I do get a little nervous distrubing things like a MIDI, but I'm willing to do it with one condition - you send me an MP3 of of what it sounds like with your setup.

I am curious what your midi setup sounds like as I spent a GREAT deal of time expirementing with mine and buying a synthesizer that had good sounds all around, ect. I have multiple options of what I can use, all of them pretty high quality. What I tend to use the most though is the soundbank from my Korg X5D Music Synthesizer. For the price, I can't imagine something sounding better than it. I am curious to hear what you can do, and what your setup is, so please post with your e-mail and details about what you use. Then as soon as is convienent, I'd like to hear what it sounds like. Thanks.

Wedge - Well, I do hope you grow to like this music a bit more too. It's going to be mostly this orchestral style from hear on, but you'll probably hear some more jazz with recordings of a real saxophone (next time around I might get around to doing some improv on the tunes too). And I'm currently researching ideas for Kilrathi music (as in something that Kilrathi culture would produce) to try some experimental stuff. Hopefully, by the end of episode 5 there will be a little bit of every style in there to please everyone.

As I mentioned, there are plans at somepoint to record at least the overture with a real orchestra, so we'll see what that sounds like. Unfortionately, more proffesional than I have in terms of MIDI synthesis is also more of a pocket than I have :(
 
Hey dude, I liked the tunes a lot. I think Jazz fits into it all perfectly to be honest. Bradshaw is kind of a sleazy guy. It all seems so 1940's, perfect.

I have no criticisms about the music. How could I have. Other than WC 1 it is better than anything origin could have come up with. Excellent.

Any chance you might need any horns for future stuff. Not played Jazz in a while but it would be nice to get out of the classical rut I am in. I like the sound of your work.
 
Thanks for taking all this time to respond and articulate your thoughts. The diversity of this community has always been one of its greatest strengths, so it's very satisfying that we can have such varied dialogues for everyone to participate in.

The reason why I asked what you have to say about this music is simply because of the great gap that exists between the perception one has of their own music and the reception it gets from others. Never at all will those things even be remotely the same for many obvious reasons. I understand that it’s impossible to completely convey your thoughts about your own music to another person; perhaps it may not even be possible to understand it all yourself. My curiosity comes from the wondering of what it was you were trying to accomplish the moment right before you started writing. Surely you had certain goals in mind and a general form of what was to be. How long did you want the piece to be? Did you go over that time? How many sections did you decide to have and how did you proportion them with one another? Are there any specific tonal relationships between the sections? Any motivic elements common throughout? What was the general feeling you wanted to leave the listener with? At what points did you think the listener would be bored, surprised or excited? Is there a specific climax to the piece? How did you compose the various parts, was it from mind to pen to orchestra or did you first score it for piano or other individual parts? Did you encounter any difficulties with length, form, rhythm, melody or scoring? Why did you pick the key that you did? Why the meter?

I understand the reasons you list for the choices you made, and they make sense, but I still stand by my initial feelings. Certainly that means nothing to anybody but me, but that's the way these things are. When making something that is designed solely for the enjoyment and enrichment of others, sometimes the things that we think are brilliant turn out to have no effect, or quite the opposite effect, on the audience. Likewise, the things we paid little attention to turn out to be treasured. The only way to get around this obstacle is to continue to listen to feedback, as you do, and start to alter your own perceptions of what your music means to people.

Regarding the melody in the first section: I do hear it, but it does seem unclear to me. Maybe I expected more of a recognizable theme, like the one for UE. It sounds as though the melody has equal attention with the ostinato and orchestral hits. The syncopation also throws me off a bit. It seems that when so many instruments are doing a syncopated rhythm, then it isn't really syncopation anymore since the pulse of the meter just kind of gets lost. There has to be some kind of indicator as to what the pulse is supposed to be for a rhythm that is unaligned with it to have an impact. I don't think this is a very big deal here though and it comes out pretty clear.

Regarding the second section: While the instruments certainly aren't playing in unison, they do seem to be arriving at the same notes at the same time. At 1:37.5 the guitar, the bell, the strings and the chorus all land on an E flat together. Beyond that, everything moves in similar if not parallel motion. I think this ends up making things sound rather hollow. It does sound sad, sorrowful and reflective though. The reason the melody doesn't seem very obvious to me is the fact that all the parts just seem too similar to me and the melody just doesn't stand out against the constant arpeggios.

Regarding the conclusion of that section: The suspensions and change of texture is nice and refreshing here, I just think that when it gets back to that melody again it sounds tired. That has more to do with the fact that it was overplayed previously than the way it is presented here. I like that it sounds nice and grand here and tries to evoke a different feeling from the theme, I just think we've heard more than enough of it at that point. Also, some parts of it sound awkward to me, specifically the sudden chromatic movement of the A flat, A, B (not sure how to contextually word that since I’m at work and can’t listen to it) and the trill. Neither of those seem to be bad ideas, they just seem counter to the style that you had established up to that point. The programmatic elements of it may be more obvious when playing the game or understanding the story, but I hope you aren’t assuming that the listener is recognizing such subtlety.

Regarding the final section: I just think the drums are distracting. I understand that they’re important, but since Wedge had a similar reaction, it might be worth considering.

I would always encourage anyone that is writing orchestral music to indeed score it with an actual orchestra in mind; it just plain makes sense. The issue comes from the fact that there’s a frustrating schism between what you will write and what you will hear. Orchestral writing is undoubtedly the most complex and nuanced medium possible, far beyond the reach of the abilities of MIDI, and a lot of things are going to be lost in the translation. I think you have to make a decision about if you’re writing this music for a human orchestra, or you’re writing it for a box beside your computer. If you don’t, you might find that you end up writing music that doesn’t quite work for either.

I certainly look forward to the opportunity to look at the score; any further comments would probably necessitate such a thing.
 
Ace, I'll do my best to answer all your questions - here goes.

ace said:
My curiosity comes from the wondering of what it was you were trying to accomplish the moment right before you started writing. Surely you had certain goals in mind and a general form of what was to be. How long did you want the piece to be? Did you go over that time? How many sections did you decide to have and how did you proportion them with one another? Are there any specific tonal relationships between the sections? Any motivic elements common throughout? What was the general feeling you wanted to leave the listener with? At what points did you think the listener would be bored, surprised or excited? Is there a specific climax to the piece? How did you compose the various parts, was it from mind to pen to orchestra or did you first score it for piano or other individual parts? Did you encounter any difficulties with length, form, rhythm, melody or scoring? Why did you pick the key that you did? Why the meter?

I wanted the piece to be roughly a medley more for my guidance than anything else. When I sit down to write a soundtrack I try to keep certain themes the same throughout. I wanted the piece to contain the themes that I planned to use throughout the entire game.

The first section, the Standoff Fanfare, was designed to be the theme of the game. This is the song that governs the entire game. When you think Star Wars you hear a certain theme. This first section is to be that song for Standoff. This is the one that defines the game.

In contrast to UE, Standoff needed a slow, sad, reflective theme just by nature of the plot. I needed a theme to be present for all the times when something, well, less than good happens. This second section was designed to be that theme.

The third section was designed as the military theme. This is the fighting theme. When we have battles, when Confed is fighting back - that's what this theme was about.

These three pretty much cover the main elements of Standoff, so it was important to get them written so that I had something to use throughout the game. The idea of the overture was simply to link them all together into one complete piece.

I didn't think about time, relative durations, none of that. I wrote what I wanted to write for as long as the music took me for it to tell me it was done. I didn't want to restrict myself to a time limit or force myself to write a certain amount. I had no standards for durations of sections or length of the piece. It is and was to be simply as long as it was to be, and is, as confusing as that is. I very strongly believe that the music and ideas will tell me when they're done.

The concepts and motives change at each section, as they are each a different theme unto themselves. They all share a similar general catagory of style, but the only thing linking them together is what influenced and inspired them - they're all written for and about Standoff.

The piece wasn't really written with the listener in mind. It was written for me, as a tool to the composer. These are the things I heard in my head when I thought of certain elements of Standoff. Listening to the complete Overture, the intro was designed to kind of put the listener in the mood of Wing Commander. I treat that intro melody as the theme of Wing Commander in general, and it needed to be there somewhere. The first section is something of an explosion for the listener. The listener hears a melody, but a lot of coloring and icing around it - the idea is to emmerse them in the music. When we get to the second section, its supposed to create that slow, sad, reflective feeling building to a major climax. This then leads us to the third section, which should create a strong, determined feeling. There are a few climaxes throughout, but the biggest would come towards the end of the second section. Standoff is primarily about this false truth and how humanity was decived and hurt badly. The second theme is extremely important, thus the climax here is the greatest. Also programatically this bit has a very significant meaning to anything, not just Standoff (I explained the programmatic meaning in an earlier post).

Generally the way that I write and the way that I wrote the Standoff themes is not a common practice in classical writing. I think I write this way because I'm not really a classical composer. I write a lot more pop-jazz than I do classical music. What I do is I will hear a melody, notate it, then I will harmonize it based on what I heard. From this, I create a lead sheet - melody and chords. I then orchestrate and arrange as I go, again guided by what I'm hearing. If I'm stuck, I might use my theory to guide me as to the 'proper' way to do it, but generally, I ignore theory. I write what I hear and honestly could give a rat's ass about whether or not it was 'correct'. I refuse to acknowledge any possibility of there being a right and wrong in music. My favorite quote comes from saxophonist and innovator Charlie Parker, "Music is your own experience, your thoughts, your wisdom. If you don’t live it, it won’t come out of your horn... They teach you there's a boundary line to music… but, man, there’s no boundary line to art." I firmly believe that.

Everything I did in terms of key, rhythm, meter form, orchestration - virtually everything is because I heard it that way. I can back it all up theoretically, but honestly who cares. The only justification that I think is necessary is "because that's how I heard it."

ace said:
I understand the reasons you list for the choices you made, and they make sense, but I still stand by my initial feelings. Certainly that means nothing to anybody but me, but that's the way these things are. When making something that is designed solely for the enjoyment and enrichment of others, sometimes the things that we think are brilliant turn out to have no effect, or quite the opposite effect, on the audience. Likewise, the things we paid little attention to turn out to be treasured. The only way to get around this obstacle is to continue to listen to feedback, as you do, and start to alter your own perceptions of what your music means to people.

Tell me about it... I think that's something that all us musicians deffinately deal with. Probably the best we can do is ask for feedback.

ace said:
Regarding the conclusion of that section: The suspensions and change of texture is nice and refreshing here, I just think that when it gets back to that melody again it sounds tired. That has more to do with the fact that it was overplayed previously than the way it is presented here. I like that it sounds nice and grand here and tries to evoke a different feeling from the theme, I just think we've heard more than enough of it at that point. Also, some parts of it sound awkward to me, specifically the sudden chromatic movement of the A flat, A, B (not sure how to contextually word that since I’m at work and can’t listen to it) and the trill. Neither of those seem to be bad ideas, they just seem counter to the style that you had established up to that point. The programmatic elements of it may be more obvious when playing the game or understanding the story, but I hope you aren’t assuming that the listener is recognizing such subtlety.

Yes. This is by far the longest section, and I was worried it might be too long. However, I just felt that enough was different towards the end of that section to keep people interested. Just my opinion.

ace said:
Regarding the final section: I just think the drums are distracting. I understand that they’re important, but since Wedge had a similar reaction, it might be worth considering.

A lot of people have been commenting on that, and over the weekend I listed to a recording of this Overture with a nicer speaker system than I could fit in my dorm room. I hear how the drums can be distracting. I think part of the problem is because I wrote it, I'm very framiliar with what's going on so I hear it, even if its difficult to hear in the recording.

ace said:
I would always encourage anyone that is writing orchestral music to indeed score it with an actual orchestra in mind; it just plain makes sense. The issue comes from the fact that there’s a frustrating schism between what you will write and what you will hear. Orchestral writing is undoubtedly the most complex and nuanced medium possible, far beyond the reach of the abilities of MIDI, and a lot of things are going to be lost in the translation. I think you have to make a decision about if you’re writing this music for a human orchestra, or you’re writing it for a box beside your computer. If you don’t, you might find that you end up writing music that doesn’t quite work for either.

I'm writing the music for a human orchestra, but as one is unavailable, the box in my computer will have to do :p Dealing with synthesizer technology is a pain in the ass, but its the best I can do at present. If an orchestra were available to me I would jump at the chance to use it in a second. I think its better that everything is scored for a real orchestra rather than a box in the computer because I think it sounds better than writing for synth instruments, and it makes it very easy to have the music played by an orchestra if the oppertunity presents itself. I write music for humans that a human can play that works for a human. As humans is unavailable, well... a synthesizer is the next best thing.

ace said:
I certainly look forward to the opportunity to look at the score; any further comments would probably necessitate such a thing.

I do thank you for all of your comments, and the score will probably be available at some point. Its just too soon right now. However, if you have Sibelius, I could send you the score file, as I trust you with it - just don't show it to anyone without telling me.
 
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