Smoothing the edges...

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
So. Forstchen's novel is not something done with love for WC Universe.

Neither is your post.

The difference here is that the fans have long-loved all the Wing Commander novels and no dissension though uninformed opinion is going to change that. No matter how loud you raise your voice, you will forever remain in the minority on this.
 

MjavTheGray

Spaceman
Andrew Keith and Ben Ohlander ?
Ummm...
Sorry :(
They were never mentioned in russian edition.
So it was THEM who did all that mess... I see :)

And still.
Blair, who wasn't afraid of Thrakhath, who wasn't afraid of Tolwyn, who was always the force for justice... He would never be afraid of any Theether bandit, whatever evil or psychopathic would he be.
And IMHO Mark Hamill showed that ours brave honest Blair just fine.
- You are gonna wish you never met me! - and knife is at his throat
- I already do, - answer of Blair, who's not afraid.

And this nice scene is replaced with frightened mewling farmer?

Again, I am sorry for my outburst, but... Never would I accept a cowardly Blair.

And BWU? In the game we do see them proud and brave. Poor but not without accomplishments of their own. Banshee is a match for Arrow. Vindycator's a bit better than Thinderbolt... And even if they were not - BW DO HAVE their own ships.

And the book? BW have NOTHING. NO-O-O-THING! Not even a single garbage shuttle of their own.

Not the tech stats are important, but the people. Isn't it so?

Also. As for WCIII book - I've re-read it:


Do you ever find yourself wishing for the
old days, Hobbes? Back when we were junior pilots, flying for the sheer hell
of it all? Sometimes I'd give everything I've got to be back on the old
Tiger's Claw with you, and Angel, and Paladin...

So I do admit my mistake. Yes, no word about the rank.
But did ever Hobbes and Blair serve both on the Claw?

What of the scene at Concordia where Mariko introduces Hobbes to Blair?

So I am still insisting on the fact that official books DO cripple the WCU...
 

QuailPilot

Spaceman
In Wc2 the scene where Hobbes is introduced Spirit says something like,

"Do you remeber Captain Hallas?"

"You mean..."

"Yes the same Kilrathi who defected to the Tiger's Claw all those years ago."
(NOTE: It think there was something about the Drathili in there but I can't remember now.)

Also if you read the book Freedom Flight, part of it is about Hobbes's defection to the Confederations, and is put on to the Tiger's Claw
 

MjavTheGray

Spaceman
Okay. Hobbes WAS stationed at Claw. That's true.
But Blair is VERY UNFRIENDLY toward him even in WC2 (at least in the beginning).
Do you imagine his attitude during WC1?
I hope I do. And I can't imagine ANYTHING Blair would be glad to remember.
WC2 times? Yes. He would miss that time when he found unexpectedly a loyal friend.
WC1 times? He despised that defector, didn't he?
 

QuailPilot

Spaceman
It's up to the player right there...Blair only knew at the time that the Claw was carrying to Kilrathi defectors in the VIP alien quarters. The only pilot that remotely interacted with them was Hunter.

Blair probably never actually had a conversation with Hobbes until wc2
 

MjavTheGray

Spaceman
The only pilot that remotely interacted with them was Hunter.
Blair probably never actually had a conversation with Hobbes until wc2

Yessss!!!!!
You said it, friend :)

That's the thing Mjav's saying:
Blair can not miss Claw's times (talking about Hobbes) for he did never knew him :) at least never knew him *that good * :)
 

QuailPilot

Spaceman
I said, it's up to your imagination.

If you think he didn't know him that well, then good for you. Personally...I don't really care about that point. All I do is fly with him.
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
p6ljqmpiuidjny3v4u4c6arvw2.jpg
 

Edfilho

Cry some more!
Yessss!!!!!
You said it, friend :)

That's the thing Mjav's saying:
Blair can not miss Claw's times (talking about Hobbes) for he did never knew him :) at least never knew him *that good * :)

Dude, seriously, you're grasping at straws here.
Of all the big and serious background mismatches you could complain about, you're picking the silliest ones.

Maybe Blair just means he wanted to go back to a "simpler" time AND have Hobbes at his side... He's talking about wishes, not STUFF THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED IN A VERY PRECISE WAY.

And even with all the little differences, the books did a great job of fleshing out the universe more. WC is a richer and more interesting universe after reading the books. The good part is "heavier" than the bad part, in the scale.
 

Dundradal

Frog Blast the Vent Core!
Andrew Keith and Ben Ohlander did great jobs with their respective novelization. Keith went on to write False Colors and had 2 other ideas in his mind for follow ups. I also think it's odd that they weren't mentioned in the Russian versions, they were really the primary writers (as LOAF said earlier, Forstchen did the outlines while the other two wrote the meat).


IIRC Blair does not met Hobbes until WC2. He's probably heard of him, as Hobbes presence must have been fairly well known throughout Confed. After Hobbes defected he was rushed away back to the inner worlds for debriefings and the like. Hunter is really the only pilot to have any extended contact with Hobbes and Kirha. Blair becomes friends and respects Hobbes because of the events of WC2/SO1/SO2. Blair is only initially hostile towards Hobbes, they have plenty of "good times" together during the WC2 period. They are good friends by the time of WC3 (think who is the first person we have an interactive conversation with in WC3).

I agree with a lot of other people in this thread that you are trying to cut down the wrong tree here. There are tons of fans that are absolutely in love with the novels (myself being one of them). The novelizations of WC3/4 are to be taken as what happened during those times (ie reality and not player choices). Just because everything that is in WC3 isn't in the novelization doesn't mean it didn't happen. It simply means it's not part of the novel narrative. Think you should leave this one alone.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Andrew Keith and Ben Ohlander ?
Ummm...
Sorry
They were never mentioned in russian edition.
So it was THEM who did all that mess... I see

You aren't being clever. A lot of people here knew Andrew Keith, myself included, and can tell you how absolutely dedicated to Wing Commander fans he was. He always went out of his way to let us know what was going on, what he was thinking about future stories and so forth.

And still.
Blair, who wasn't afraid of Thrakhath, who wasn't afraid of Tolwyn, who was always the force for justice... He would never be afraid of any Theether bandit, whatever evil or psychopathic would he be.
And IMHO Mark Hamill showed that ours brave honest Blair just fine.
- You are gonna wish you never met me! - and knife is at his throat
- I already do, - answer of Blair, who's not afraid.

No, the *player* isn't afraid of Thrakhath... a main character who doesn't worry about anything isn't an interesting one. Blair bravely stands up to Thrakhath (and Seether, and others) *despite* himself. Who could respect him if he were just some kind of crazy fearless person?

And BWU? In the game we do see them proud and brave. Poor but not without accomplishments of their own. Banshee is a match for Arrow. Vindycator's a bit better than Thinderbolt... And even if they were not - BW DO HAVE their own ships.

And the book? BW have NOTHING. NO-O-O-THING! Not even a single garbage shuttle of their own.

I would argue that this isn't true - the three ships flown in WCIV can't be specific to the Union of the Border Worlds... because the UBW comes into existince *during* the game. They *must* be existing designs flown when the colonies thought themselves part of the Confederation (in fact, we encounter them all before the UBW is formed, early in the game).


Do you ever find yourself wishing for the
old days, Hobbes? Back when we were junior pilots, flying for the sheer hell
of it all? Sometimes I'd give everything I've got to be back on the old
Tiger's Claw with you, and Angel, and Paladin...
So I do admit my mistake. Yes, no word about the rank.
But did ever Hobbes and Blair serve both on the Claw?

What of the scene at Concordia where Mariko introduces Hobbes to Blair?

So I am still insisting on the fact that official books DO cripple the WCU...

The introduction you're thinking of involves Spirit asking if Blair remembers Hobbes, not Spirit introducing him for the first time. Furthermore, the scene you've quoted doesn't say they flew together off the Tiger's Claw (though they could have) - it says Blair in 2669 *wishes* he were back on the Tiger's Claw flying with his friends. I can wish I were back at school in Texas with my friends Chris and Frosty... that doesn't mean that scenario actually ever happened, it's just an ideal. The WC3 novel *does* specifically explain that Blair was on the Tiger's Claw when Hobbes defected, too. The author knew the history.
 

MjavTheGray

Spaceman
I am blown to tiny bits. Can't argue you, Bandit LOAF. I just can't...
And while I do stay with my opinion I do admit my defeat, and swear to never criticize any novelist ...
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
I think the point is that there's a big difference between criticism and just being snarky. Some of what you were posting was an intelligent debate... but we need to discuss the ideas, not attack the people.
 

MjavTheGray

Spaceman
The only excuse I have for myself is that I am always too emotional when it is about something that is dear to me.
And WCU certainly is one of those really dear things for MjavtheGray...
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
The only excuse I have for myself is that I am always too emotional when it is about something that is dear to me.

Everyone finds themselves in this position at some time or another, and thats fine.

The real wisdom comes from seeing it as it happens, and walking away from the computer for a while. Ride a bike, play some Wing Commander, read a book - and then come back when the feeling has passed.
 

Dundradal

Frog Blast the Vent Core!
Yeah childhood passions are something embedded with a real raw emotional attachment. If you haven't already try reading False Colors (I don't recall if you said if you had or not) to see what Andrew Keith did with his later WC work. The novelizations got a lot of people annoyed when they came out, but after years of discussion most of the major issues that had bothered people were resolved. The first impression of them is not always positive, but take heed and look things over again. You will probably be pleasantly surprised.
 

Dundradal

Frog Blast the Vent Core!
Yeah probably.

I was also thinking in the context of how they don't show *every* mission in WC3 (like the Sevrin rescue). Some people just didn't understand the concept of different narratives.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
I was also thinking in the context of how they don't show *every* mission in WC3 (like the Sevrin rescue). Some people just didn't understand the concept of different narratives.

Well, this is two things. Yes, people absolutely don't understand how novelizing something works... we seem to have a steady stream of people who just don't get how Blair could be a *human* character instead of the super-hero he is in the games. It's *necessary* for storytelling, not some risky narrative choice. Obviously the same applies to removing missions and so forth...

... although I do disagree about removing Severin.

It *was* an interesting story that was relevant to the rest of the book, and one that could easily have enhanced the narrative. It does a very good job of enhancing the atomic bomb allegory - from rescuing the scientists from the Nazis to the Trinity test to all the internal moralizing that went on at the end... and that last fact is important to the overall story. I find it hard to believe that you would want to remove Severin from a narrative of WC3 because he's such an important mirror for Blair. Blair finding himself in agreement with the by-any-means-necessary immoral scientist who's willing to kill human civilians for his end goal is an important point to moralizing the character.

Also, it would have been nice to explore the character a bit more in the novel simply because they wanted him to return in Privateer 3.
 

Dundradal

Frog Blast the Vent Core!
Good point. That was one of the differences that I remember evoked a lot of emotion in people and for a vocal minority made them hate the novelization because of it. It would have been nice to explore the a-bomb allegory. The novels do a nice job of humanizing Blair. I remember how struck I was when I read the book and Blair failed at Locanda IV, I couldn't believe our eternal hero...had failed.

Do you know why Sevrin was removed from the novel? I don't remember if I ever asked Andrew about it back then, but I'm sure someone asked him about it.
 
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