Saddam's trial

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Sphynx

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It sounds like at least Quarto (and probably others, as well) has some thoughtful things to say about this topic, and I'd like to hear them. My only request is that this thread not be turned into a flame-war. Keep it civil if you disagree with someone else's point of view.

So, what are your thoughts about Saddam's trial?
 
Could someone bring me up to date? (We havent heard much about it over here... we just got a new government, so thats got most of the media covering.)
 
Quoting Star Trek VI: Undiscovered Country:

"It's nothing but a damn show trial..."

It's a media circus that is getting blown out of proportion. Milosovich certainly didn't have quite the press coverage this has gotten (at least not in the US). Saddam challenges the authority of the court to try him, denies any wrong doing, further challenges that the United States are the ones that who have illegally proceeded against him...actually a pretty clever defense. End of the day...he's guilty of genocide, the evidence is overwhelming...and unlike the case of WMDs, the evidence won't disappear. Like any criminal he should be accorded certain privacy rights...I think the media getting shots of him in his undies etc was completely uncalled for and distasteful. On the other hand...he's not in prison with three hundred thugs gang raping him either...I'd count myself fortunate if I were him.

All that being said...he deserves to be treated equally in every aspect as those who were tried at Nuremberg.
 
Well, my point of view will, I suspect, be quite controversial... but that's not entirely unusual ;). Brace yourself for a long read, however :p.

Saddam Hussein's defence is that the court has no authority, because he's still the president. This may seem fairly silly, really - I mean, come on, the president is the one who has the powers of a president (which is not Saddam), and the court's authority is defined by the fact that it can sentence him. So obviously, his argumetns are flawed. However, like I mentioned in another thread, this is really the best approach he can use - this is a show trial, he's already been pronounced guilty even before it begun, so the best strategy for him is to at least go down with honour... and stall things as long as humanly possible. Unlike those fellas at Guantanamo, Saddam hasn't been cut off from the world outside - he knows what's going on in Iraq, and he probably realises better than any man out there just how unstable the situation in Iraq is. Fact is, America can't stay in Iraq forever - and at this particular moment at least, it appears as though the Iraqi government may not survive for long when America does withdraw. Also, I've recently heard in the news (only from one source, so it's not exactly something I'd consider certifiably true) that the Iraqi government is negotiating with the Baath party... so I wouldn't be surprised if one day they announce that Saddam will be sent into exile as part of some kind of peace deal with his party. All in all, Saddam Hussein has a lot of good reasons to stall - and no reason whatsoever to cooperate with the court, given that no matter what he says and does, he'll still be declared guilty in the end.

But all of the above entirely misses the point. I feel that there's something much more important to point out - from a legal point of view, this trial is a despicable sham - just like all the other war crimes trials to date, as a matter of fact.

Bear in mind, I'm neither defending nor justifying the things Saddam Hussein's government has done. He's done a hell of a lot of harm, and that's the reason why I supported this war from the start. However, we gotta be honest - if it ain't lawful, it ain't justice. And this trial is not lawful.

Think about it this way. Every day, you go to a nearby forest and collect firewood for some reason. You do this for years. Then one day some ecologist comes by, sees the firewood-less forest, and for some reason lobbies the government to outlaw firewood collection. The government agrees. Firewood collection is now against the law... but they don't try you for it. Why? Because you didn't commit a crime - you collected firewood before it was illegal.

It's the same thing with all these war crimes trials, starting right from the post WWII trials. How can you justify trying someone for "war crimes", when what he did was not a crime at the time when he did it? Heck - we have treaties about war crimes now... but the people who do these things aren't actually signatories to these treaties. As such, they perpetrate genocide and various massacres - but they never commit any crimes in doing so. Now, you might think that war crimes being so serious, you can't afford to let such people get away with it, no matter what the legalities are. That's understandable, because the things these people did really are vile... but if you let the government violate such rules once, even if it doesn't affect you, you lose any guarantee you had that they won't ever do it to you. It just ain't worth it - no matter if it's Saddam Hussein, Pol Pot, Hitler, or even Stalin. The law itself must always be considered more sacred than our duty to repay someone for a given crime.

Note, furthermore, that by Iraqi law - the very same law by which Saddam Hussein is now supposedly being tried - the president is immune to prosecution. Again - you cannot possibly justify such a trial, because you're breaking the most elementary definition of justice... in the name of justice. So it's not justice - it's pure and simple revenge. And yeah, the Iraqi people have a hell of a lot to be vengeful about - but revenge is immoral, no matter what.

Finally, there is one exceedingly important aspect that people invariably either forget about, or completely misunderstand, namely - the effect of such trials on other dictators. I remember reading more than a few articles suggesting that when you punish one dictator, you discourage other dictators from seizing power. Kinda like the death penalty for murder, right? Wrong - it's the exact opposite. A murderer knows that no matter what he does, he'll never be completely safe. Once he commits murder, justice will always be after him. But a dictator - that's a different story entirely. A dictator, when he seizes power, is not only perpetrating a crime - he's also seizing the tools he can use to prevent justice from catching up. So unlike the death penalty for murder, punishing dictators does not work to prevent others from imitating them (not unless you'd be willing to attack every country with a dictatorship - and there's far too many for that). It's worse than that, though - by punishing dictators, not only do you not discourage others, but in fact you force them to continue their crimes.

Just imagine, there you are: you're the vile, despicable dictator of some country in the middle of nowhere. Everybody hates you - and with good reason. Still, you're getting old, and you're thinking it might be nice to retire... only, how? If you step down from power and stay in your country, you'll be dead in a week. You can make a deal with your people - give them democracy, and in return they'll promise not to try you. Hey, Pinochet tried that... now he's being tried, because the people he made a deal with turned out to be liars. So, what other options do you have? Well, maybe you can go into exile... this is the point where you look around to find out what happened to other people in your position. And, as of the late 20th century, things are not looking good - if you go abroad, the media will start a circus around you, reminding everybody about what a bastard you are. The new government of your country will demand your extradition - and since nobody likes to give shelter to evil bastards, you will be extradited. So you're dead.

No thanks, you decide. You're staying in power to the end of your life, even if it means killing another million people just to keep the revolution at bay.

For me, this is the crux of the matter. It's not just that we don't have the legal authority to punish these people. It's not just that we have to violate the very idea of justice in order to punish them. It's all about the people that we condemn to death in the name of revenge. Right before this war in Iraq begun, for a moment it looked as though there was a chance that Saddam Hussein would go into exile of his own free will. He was negotiating with various nations in this regard, and some of these nations turned to America to find out what President Bush's stance would be on this matter. The response? Saddam Hussein gives aid to terrorists. We won't guarantee his safety, and we'll still be going after him... but we'd appreciate it if he did leave and save us from going to war. Not exactly a reassuring message - so he stayed in power to the bitter end. And that's the real pity - that every time it comes down to removing some dictator from power, we are willing to kill thousands of innocent people (even if we don't kill them directly - if we're responsible for their deaths, then we did in fact kill them) just so that we can remove him from power and kill him. But if we're willing to kill so many people just to punish this one guy... how exactly are we better than him?

In conclusion - it's really not a pleasant thought that someone out there can give the order to kill millions of people and be secure in the knowledge that he won't be punished. But if not punishing him means saving the lives of further millions - then let's leave his punishment to God.
 
Very thoughtful responses thus far.

Quarto, you bring up a good question. Is this a case of ex post facto law-making and punishment? Or, is there a basis in international law for trying someone on charges like this, even if they weren't against the law in the dictator's state while the dictator was in power?

Some may point to the Geneva Treaty and the post WWII accords, and the powers vested in the U.N. security counsel to say they make such a thing legal. Others believe that such powers would be an infringment on the sovereignty of nations, and thus are only legitimate if accepted by a given nation. So, that is the real question. Where is the authority for a trial like this, and how is it legitimized?

For that matter, does anyone know what the law about such actions was in Iraq under the rule of Saddam? I think the charges are forcible expulsion, murder, etc... This trial isn't even dealing with genocide. Is there any way to look in Saddam-era Iraqi law books? That is something I would be very interested in finding out.

I really don't have answers for these questions. I think men like Saddam need to be removed from power and punished. At the same time, I think civilization demands that people willingly comply with the rule of equitable law. So, Quarto brings up a good point. I don't know enough about international law and Iraqi law to answer the questions his words bring up.

However, I will say one thing: I think you folks are right about Saddam's tactics. As far as Saddam is concerned, all he can do is stall, and really his only plea is that the court and government judging him are not legitimate.

I shall be very interested to see what direction this goes in.
 
Ptarmigan said:
He deserves a trial like what Admiral Tolwyn got in WC4.

Tolwyn was tried before a five-judge panel in an Admiralty Court. That doesn't seem particularly appropriate for Iraq.
 
Hey just a thought from the uneducated masses....
If Saddam is still technically the president, and said president would be the Commander in Chief of the Iraqi military, shouldn't he also face a charge of desertion?
 
Bandit LOAF said:
Tolwyn was tried before a five-judge panel in an Admiralty Court. That doesn't seem particularly appropriate for Iraq.

I was thinking more like, people yelling at him, like what they did in WC4.
 
Aplha 1-1 said:
Hey just a thought from the uneducated masses....
If Saddam is still technically the president, and said president would be the Commander in Chief of the Iraqi military, shouldn't he also face a charge of desertion?

Who would he be deserting though? He never left Iraq. Nevertheless, as previously stated in this thread, if he were still president, and we were going under his old laws, he'd be legally immune to prosecution.
 
Saddam Hussein is no longer the president of Iraq.

The Iraqi's elected representatives voted into office a new president earlier this year, Jalal Talabani.
 
I didn't want to post a new thread just to get this question answered so I am posting it here. I have a good friend who says that this CIA investigation could lead to an impeachment trial of George Bush. The problem is I don't think they'd have enough to link him to High crimes against the united states even if Rove is guilty or libby gets taken apart. My question is How does impeachment work and is it prossible that the white house could be looking at a big big problem? I'm looking for fact here so please don't post your political opinion. People who are knowledgeable only please.

-Rance-
 
Aplha 1-1 said:
Hey just a thought from the uneducated masses....
If Saddam is still technically the president, and said president would be the Commander in Chief of the Iraqi military, shouldn't he also face a charge of desertion?
Uh... no. Firstly, because he didn't desert. As far as we know, he retained command until the very end - and he was ultimately taken as a prisoner of war in Iraq. Secondly, desertion means abandoning the people above you in the chain of command. It's hard to imagine how the Commander in Chief and President could possibly desert.

Sphynx said:
Quarto, you bring up a good question. Is this a case of ex post facto law-making and punishment?
It's not a question - it's a fact. You have to remember, "international law" does not exist. It's really an amazing thing - in the second half of the 20th century, we've witnessed this great boom in the field of international law, with all manner of courts and lawyers specialising in this discipline... I suppose it is unsurpring that all these people involved in international law would want us to forget that there's no such thing. The court in Nuremburg, the interational tribunals - they're all based on the idea that the winner has the right to punish the loser, not on the idea of justice. You don't have to be a lawyer to understand this (I sure ain't) - you just have to understand the basic concept of sovereignty.

Why doesn't international law exist? Because law, by definition, requires someone to uphold it. This means that somebody is in charge of upholding the law - and everyone else is subject to it. Sovereign states, meanwhile, are not, by definition, subject to anyone. If they were subject, they wouldn't be sovereign. Therefore, there can never be any kind of law that one sovereign state could impose on another - to do so would cancel the other state's sovereignty, and it would no longer be international law.

What about treaties, though? Iraq is apparently a signatory to some of the treaties banning such things as genocide. So if we try him for violating these treaties - isn't that international law? No. Again, Iraq is a sovereign state. It is therefore not possible to punish Iraqi authorities for violations of treaties unless they themselves ask to be punished. International treaties do not constitute law - they are simply gentleman's agreements between equal partners who solemnly promise not to do certain things. There is no punishment for violating these promises, though, other than a loss of confidence - again, if anyone had the authority to punish a sovereign state, than it obviously wouldn't be sovereign.

Of course, you might argue that once Iraq lost sovereignty (which it most certainly did), its former rulers are open to prosecution. But then we're back to the issue of punishing people for things that, at the time when they did them, were not punishable by law.

In short, there is nothing whatsoever legitimate about this trial. And it's important that we be willing to admit this - remember, merely admitting that you don't have the legal power to punish someone is not anywhere near the same as claiming this person doesn't deserve to be punished.

I really don't have answers for these questions. I think men like Saddam need to be removed from power and punished.
Well, I hope you had the patience to read through my post to the point where I argued that removing people like Saddam from power and punishing them are two mutually-exclusive things :). I mean, if the US had the ability (and the determination) to remove from power every dictator in the world - then punishing former dictators would serve a purpose. However, the US doesn't have the resources to simultaneously commit themselves to the occupation of two countries, let alone the 20-30 countries worldwide ruled by dictators. It would take the US half a dozen two-term presidents working exclusively towards this goal to make the world dictator-free... and even that improbable vision assumes the US would be willing to go after their own allies, and that no new dictators would appear during this time.

Since this is obviously not possible, I think the best thing we could do is refrain ourselves from taking revenge on former dictators, for the sake of the other dictators, who will thus be able to persuade to quit power. Again, I remind you - if you are even remotely religious, it won't matter to you if these people get away without punishment on Earth, because you certainly won't find them in Heaven after they're dead.

(...and if you're certifiably 100% atheist... then all morality is relative, and you really have no way of arguing that what Saddam Hussein did was wrong... so why do you care?)
 
Quarto said:
(...and if you're certifiably 100% atheist... then all morality is relative, and you really have no way of arguing that what Saddam Hussein did was wrong... so why do you care?)

Although I agree with much of what you have said, this is a bit of a demeaning generalisation. Call it Socratic Rationality or simply the code of conduct you have developed through social exposure, what we coin as morality does not necessarily stem from religion. And asking someone whether they are capable of caring or defining the harmful wrongdoings (the general definition of which certainly didn't begin with any of the popular religions around today - well plausibly Hinduism) of others simply because they do not prescribe to the lore of men, gospel or not, is silly.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
Tolwyn was tried before a five-judge panel in an Admiralty Court. That doesn't seem particularly appropriate for Iraq.
I think it does! Put him before a panel selected by the UN for "Crimes against Humanity"
 
Spirit's Dommo! said:
Although I agree with much of what you have said, this is a bit of a demeaning generalisation.
Good - because that's exactly what it was meant to be. The truth comes in many forms, and sometimes in the form of demeaning generalisations.

Morality is a set of guidelines that tell you how to behave. Religion, on the other hand, tells you why to behave. They're two sides of the same coin, one can't exist without the other. The idea of morality is that no matter what happens, some things are always wrong, and some are always right. But in order for this to be the case, there needs to be a reason for these things - and God is the reason. What possible reason would an atheist have to believe that murder is always wrong? He might believe that at this particular moment, murder would be wrong (for example, because he'd be punished)... but always wrong?

Tell you what - instead of me explaining, why don't you try to come up with an argument as to why an atheist should consider murder to be wrong under any and all circumstances. If you can come up with an argument that I cannot disprove, I'll admit that my generalisation was wrong :).
 
Quarto,

Just to reassure you, I have read all of your postings. It seems that you are putting a great deal of thought into this, and I applaud you for it. I think you and I both agree that he should be punished. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the punishment should be left up to a more eternal matter. From my spiritual point of view, let me just say that I wouldn't want to be in Saddam's shoes for that judgment day.

From what you are saying, since Iraq (under Saddam) signed treaties against genocide (as I recall, they were even on the UN security council and as such, were technically supposed to be a part of enforicing those treaties), that would be the most reasonable charge to be brought up against him since he could be charged with it in his own (or what was once his own) sovereignty.

(And, I agree with you there. I think sovereignty must be respected, and only under the most pressing of circumstances should nations resort to violating the sovereignty of another nation. Things like genocide are, in my mind, sufficient cause.)

So, I was wondering if you would be willing to share something else, Quarto. You have stated clearly and respectfully why you disagree with what is going on as far as the trial is concerned, and you have said a bit about what you think should happen instead. Perhaps you could tell us more about what you think should be done in this case?

I must say, from my point of view, I agree that this is a show trial. However, in this case, I don't know if I think that is an alltogether bad thing. He is facing the very people that he oppressed. Their pleas to him either went unheard or punished (I speak from my experience with Iraqis who lived under his regime). It is against them that his crimes were committed, and now it is to them that he must answer. To my moral sense, there seems to be a justice in this.

I can tell you what I think would be a frightening and unjust sentence: exiling him to the United States. There are enough people who would feel it was their duty to make him suffer here, I think the vigilantes would get to him in a rather unpleasant way. However, I don't know if what would happen to him in the U.S.A. would be any worse than what would happen to him if he were just placed out on the streets in Iraq.

As you can see, I am more musing out loud than making an argument. I'll have to look some more into the legal arguments being made about the legtimacy of the trial.
 
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