Remake !=.... (warning, *rant*)

Do you agree?

  • Hell yeah man, forget this new-fangled stuff...gimme the origin-al

    Votes: 9 37.5%
  • Aww naw, you got it wrong, d00d, more is better!!

    Votes: 14 58.3%
  • Who gives a rats @$$??

    Votes: 1 4.2%

  • Total voters
    24
  • Poll closed .
BradMick said:
i'm not wasting anything, if anything i'm fact finding. cuz i'm looking at doing up a nostalgic deal as a little project. many may think me nuts, i don't care :) as a 3d artist doing low poly stuff all the damn time gets really old, really fast. it'd be nice to finally be able to do some killer high res work, and show it off in a game other than a cut scene :)

Oh you'd be amazed on the polygon counts the modern graphics cards can support, send me the detail of model you'd like in game and I'll get a fleet of them on my machine with lighting and all. Most of the GPU time goes into effects, none of which would be applicable to a pre-rendered model.
 
i don't think any game would be playable with models in the 100k polys (convert that to tris, taking into account that there's probably more than one n-gon spot on it). hehehe....that'd be what, 200k tris? maybe higher, for seriously high res it'd be even higher. to the point where hand painted textures wouldn't be something you'd even do.
 
With a polygon count of 200k the X800 XT could theoretically handle a little over 60 of those ships at 60fps.
 
i'm running a 128mb ddr 9800 Pro card.....it starts having issues when you have 2-3 objects of that size on screen all at once. granted, i've been told there are differences between 3D program engines, and Game Engines, but i don't see how it could render in real time an object like that with full out textures without grinding to a horribly catastrophic halt.
 
Just depends on how much detail the game engine is applying...with a decked out rig I think you could run 200k models in Vegastrike easily. However, to try to run a 200k model in say the Doom 3 engine would probably be catastrophic.
 
a) The 9800 series doesn't even come close to comparing with the X800's they were just such a phenomenal leap that it rocked the 3D hardware world.

b) Maj Striker is spot on, it totally depends on the engine, but since we're comparing to pre-rendered models you can ignore lighting, bump mapping, reflections or any snazzy effects. From my experience with my FYP adding a single texture, even a hi-res one usually doesn't have all that much of an impact.

Since you'd never need more than 10 on screen at the highest LOD those numbers go up.
 
BradMick said:
also, this is a point i've argued many times. a sprite engine now, rendered for higher screen res's would look freaking awesome. if i could program i'd prove my point. if you render sprites for screen res's of 1024 +, you're going to see a ton of detail, not to mention you can render them out all photo-real like and really kick some visual ass. one day i'll finally be able to prove this. a lot of folks don't realize that the original priv and all those were rendered for 320x240 screen res? at most 640x480? there' s a BIG difference there.

If you really want to see a game accomplish this, then go grab a copy of Robotron 4096. You can see what a sprite engine can accompish on modern hardware (albeit with only 4K for code and graphics!), but you should also have no trouble spotting the issues with using sprite engines for modern games. (FYI, you'll need Java 1.4 or higher to play.)

Also, Super Wing Commander was pretty close to what you're describing. The 3DO had more than enough horsepower to give you a high-resolution sprite engine, so you might consider checking that out.
 
Anyway, Brad, so that we can come back to the theme of this thread (Should Remake be different?), the old Privateer used a sprite engine because computers could not afford to render 3D meshes. Now they can, and it's quite logical to take advantage of it. And you don't even have to sacrifice the look of the original game while taking advantage of modern graphics.

And, another very important drawback of sprite engines: VERY POOR COLLISION DETECTION. And that is really important in a game where you'll have to dogfight in space. (To avoid misunderstandings, although a sprite engine would handle collisions very efficiently, it would be very unprecise - sprites can only assume uniform, coarse 3D shapes, but not describe them very well individually, so you end up, collision-wise, having sphere, ellipsoid or box-shaped ships, and that's bad). And you'll never get rid of the disparity between what you see the shape of a ship is and what the computer thinks it is. The big problem would arise with sprite bases, mainly, if you try to fly close to them.

If you want the look of a 100k mesh into an 8k model, you can use some (freely available) tools than can render the textures for an 8k model so that they look like a 100k model. That is, they render the details (creating a normal map, for instance) into the textures you will use with the 8k model. That way, the texturing does all the work. It's kind of an advanced form of sprites, if you think at it with good intentions.
What I mean: you don't need a sprite engine to be able to include prerendered detail. The 3D mesh engine already has all you need to do it without sprites, and without their drawbacks.
The point is that making an 8k model look as good as a 100k model depends on wise texturing. And, it can be done, with wise texturing. There are only a few impossible tasks, like modelling complex antennae or wiry things the likes of it. And you can use sprites only there, where they're needed. Nothing stops you from doing it.

Hell, if you want to have real 100k ships without performance problems, either use a lot of lod levels, or use nurbs. Again, perhaps vegastrike doesn't support nurbs, but at least if you model with nurbs you can automatically generate lod levels, and when nurbs are incorporated into vegastrike you already have the models. With enough lod management the scene would never have so huge a poly count as to make a modern GPU stall. How in hell would you put 10 full-screen ships in one screen, without colliding with each other?

Finally, a sprite egine would be a retro solution, which perphaps would be nice to create the feel of a retro game, but totally unnecesary. You can have the same effect with careful stylistic choices, and avoid all the drawbacks of the sprite engine.

And my thread-related opinion: the only aspect worth retaining in the remake as close as the original as possible (with one single exception, but nobody seems to agree with me - see the thread about dynamic economy), is gameplay. Change all you want, as long as it is to make it better. But don't change gameplay. Privateer was not about graphics. It was not about space combat either (although it had an important role). I could never find a category. For me, it was Privateer. There were RPGs, there were FPS, and there was Privateer. So, gameplay should not change. And right now, gameplay is quite close to the original (save a few bugs and some balance issues).
 
JKeefe said:
It's unnaceptable regardless of framerate.

With 180 angles the transition may have been smoother than a framerate of 15fps. 2D renderings are unacceptable under any circumstances for different reasons, most of which have already been outlined.
 
Code, anyone?

so...yeah....could someone please point me in the direction of some code? what language this is being programmed in?.....get me to where I need to be to start helping out plz?
 
For code releated questions, engine specific stuff I sugest going here Vegastrike Forum over at the sorceforge page. This forum is more for brainstorming and showing off eye candy (and arguments). If you send a PM to hellcatv I am sure he would be willing to help you out. He seems like a very nice guy.
 
Forlarren said:
For code releated questions, engine specific stuff I sugest going here Vegastrike Forum over at the sorceforge page. This forum is more for brainstorming and showing off eye candy (and arguments). If you send a PM to hellcatv I am sure he would be willing to help you out. He seems like a very nice guy.

Is there a particular thread abbout the source code? It'd be helpful to link people to that - the question comes up a lot.
 
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