Rank Structure and Chain of Command Wing Commander

[VGS_Phantasm]

Having spent my entire first enlistment in carrier aviation, I'm confused by the chain of command and rank structure in Wing Commander, as well as the inter-service relationships, patricularly in WC3 and 4, so I'm hoping you big reader types who have all of the supplementary material memorized can help me out

In modern carrier aviation, the CAG who is commander of the Carrier Air Wing, occupies a parrallel postion in the chain of command next to the "Captain" or the commander of the Carrier, and both are subordinate to the Group Commander.

Both the CAG and the Captain are typical O-5 paygrades, which is true of the WC3-4 if we assume that Blair and Eisen are a Colonel and a Captain respectively (in the Navy the commander of a vessel is addressed as Captain regardless of Rank, but there's certainly no indication that Eisen is not by rank and positon a Captain). The fact that they are of equal rank certainly does not preclude Blair from being subordinate to Eisen based on the positions they hold, but it's an odd relationship that the CAG would be subordinate to the Captain, who presumably must be operational command of the Battle Group.

It's especially odd considering the chain of command in WC2 and WCP is more like what I'm used to, which is to say the CAGs on board Concordia and Midway occupy positions alongside the Captains of said vessels below the group commanders Admiral Tolwyn and Commodore Blair respectively.

Presumably this has to do with the Midway and Concordia having much big Air Wings than the Victory or Interpid, but then wouldn't Lexington have had a full Air Wing?

Which brings up another question... how is the rank structure arranged such that Blair as a fighter pilot hold Air-Force (or Space Force in the case) ranks until he becomes a flag officer, after which he holds a Navy rank? In fact, in the instructor ending of WC4, Paladin actually mentions "General" as one of the possibilities Blair passed up to be an instructor, which of course would be the rank after Colonel.

My interpretation of the rank structure is this:

Confed Navy

Fleet / Space Force
Ensign / 2nd Liutenant
2 Liutenant / Liutenant
Liutenant / Captain
Lt. Commander / Major
Commander / Lt. Colonel
Captain / Colonel
Commodore
Rear Admiral
Vice Admiral
Admiral
Space Marshall

Anyway, any discussion from Wingnuts would be quite appriciated. Thanks!

 

[Ghost]

Both the CAG and the Captain are typical O-5 paygrades, which is true of the WC3-4 if we assume that Blair and Eisen are a Colonel and a Captain respectively (in the Navy the commander of a vessel is addressed as Captain regardless of Rank, but there's certainly no indication that Eisen is not by rank and positon a Captain). The fact that they are of equal rank certainly does not preclude Blair from being subordinate to Eisen based on the positions they hold, but it's an odd relationship that the CAG would be subordinate to the Captain, who presumably must be operational command of the Battle Group.

I see it more like a ''father-son'' relationship between Eisen and Blair in WC3 and a ''friendlierish'' relationship in WC4.

In WC3 who is the Commander of the BG? Eisen?, IIRC there is a CVE, 2-3 Destroyers or 2 destroyers and aFrigate and some transports?. (and IIRC Bondarevsky is the captain of one of those destroyers and/or the destroyer group)

BTW, there is a pic of WC3 and/or 4 where you can see his insignia?

 

[LeHah]

BTW, there is a pic of WC3 and/or 4 where you can see his insignia?

Rank bars are shown beneath a person's "tour of duty" bars.

 

[Ghost]

Sorry, i meant Eisen.

 

[Farbourne]

Is "Commodore" an actual rank (both in WC and in our real life system)? I was under the impression that in the Navy, "Rear Admiral (LH)" is the first flag rang, and is the rank immediately above "Captain" (according to http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/insignias/officers.html). I was under the impression that "Commodore" might be a title given to a person who commands a group of multiple ships, but that it didn't necessarily imply a certain rank (although I would expect such a person to be at least a Captain, if not a flag rank).

 

[Delance]

It's quite simple: Blair is the player, and someone must brief the player on the missions. If the player was a Lt., he'd be briefed by the CAG/CAW. It's more about game presentation than rank.

Presumably, Blair wouldn't received such detailed mission goals from Eisein, and they'd both discuss what to do. But that'd be hard to do from a gameplay perspective.

 

[LeHah]

Is "Commodore" an actual rank (both in WC and in our real life system)?

LOAF is our resident military expert but I believe that the term Commodore has two answers in your question.

The first one is that its a rank that I believe has since been retired from service, in lieu of Rear Admiral. You are correct, its above Captain but its below a "full" Admiral.

The second answer is that Commodore is used to sometime reference to the person in charge of a battle group. If there are two Captains on a ship, you refer to the "visiting" Captain (the one who isn't specifically assigned to the vessel) as Commodore.

(I'm probably wrong in some aspects of this post - I'm not even sure of why I'm writing it, but it sure does make me sound pretty good.)

 

[Delance]

Yeah, Commodore Blair was not in command of the TCS Midway. However, Colonel Blair was the Captain of the BWS Intrepid.

 

[VGS_Phantasm]

The rank of Commodore was the US Navy's 1 star flag officer rank until phased out in 1899. It was brought back briefly during WWII, and then again in 1982 as "Commodore Admiral" which was changed to simply "Commodore" in 1983, and then to "Rear Admiral Lower Half" in 1985, which remains today.

It's also worth noting, Commodore is still the rank of a one star flag officer in the Royal Navy, there is actually a lot of RN/RAF more so than USN terminology in "Wing Commander" which is in and of itself a term accociated with the RAF.

As such I always assumed that in the game Wing Commander "Commodore" referred to a "one-star Admiral" so to speak as it used to in the USN, and still does in the RN.

 

[Zebum]

My interpretation of the rank structure is this:

Confed Navy

Fleet / Space Force
Ensign / 2nd Liutenant
2 Liutenant / Liutenant
Liutenant / Captain
Lt. Commander / Major
Commander / Lt. Colonel
Captain / Colonel
Commodore
Rear Admiral
Vice Admiral
Admiral
Space Marshall


This interpretation is a combination of both the Space forces and Navy ranks.
It is correct until flag rank where you only list the navy ranks, the space force ranks include generals etc, hence why paladin is a general.
The reason Blair becomes a Commodore is that he tranfers to the navy before prophecy.

Hope this helps.

 

[Zebum]

My interpretation of the rank structure is this:

Confed Navy

Fleet / Space Force
Ensign / 2nd Liutenant
2 Liutenant / Liutenant
Liutenant / Captain
Lt. Commander / Major
Commander / Lt. Colonel
Captain / Colonel
Commodore
Rear Admiral
Vice Admiral
Admiral
Space Marshall

This interpretation is a combination of both the Space forces and Navy ranks.
It is correct until flag rank where you only list the navy ranks, the space force ranks include generals etc, hence why paladin is a general.
The reason Blair becomes a Commodore is that he tranfers to the navy before prophecy.

Hope this helps.

Edit: Sorry the quote refers to phantasms post not my first one, haven't used the forums for a while and cocked up!

 

[VGS_Phantasm]

One of the things I was trying to figure out was the disconnet between when Blair goes from following a Air-Force type rank structure to a Naval one. If he did an inter-service transfer to accept a fleet command position, that makes sence. Thank you!

 

[Delance]

I don't think Blair was commanding any fleet, he wasn't even commanding the ship he was in.

 

[VGS_Phantasm]

I mean a command position within the fleet, fleet meaning deployable Navy forces in general. Not litterally in command of a fleet.

Theoretically, Blair was commanding the Midway Carrier Battlegroup, but the Midway has no escorts, so that's kind of a wierd dynamic. It was never clear to me if the Midway was Blair's flag ship to begin with or if he was simply observing her shakedown as a project leader. At any rate he presumably assumes operational command of Midway's expiditionary forces when hostilities break out with the Nephilum, so while he was not the Midway's Commanding Officer, he was the Midway's Commanding Officer's Commanding Officer (assuming of course that the Carrier Battlegroup chain of command is similer to what it is now) therefore to say that Blair was not in command of the Midway is not entirely accurate unless I'm grossly misreading the situation.

It is worth noting that, though the Midway's Battlegroup consisted of only one capital ship, it would presumable consisted of multiple commands, at least one Navy Capital Ship, one Carrier Airwing, and a Marine Unit, so it would make sence that the CAG, the Captain of the Midway, and the Marine Commander would report to a flag.

 

[Delance]

Blar was not in command, Wilford was not reporting to him. If Blair was in charge, he wouldn’t have to ask Wilford to take a ride on a space fighter.

He could pull rank, because, as he very well knows, admirals, by definition, do not usurp. Neither does commodores.

 

[LeHah]

He could pull rank, because, as he very well knows, admirals, by definition, do not usurp. Neither does commodores.

However, Wilford was in command of the Midway, so Blair would have to yield to his decisions pertaining to how the ship was run. (Blair, on the other hand, could make Wilford's life and career very unpleasant if he chose to since he had the ear of many people higher up)

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Howdy! Good thread!

Both the CAG and the Captain are typical O-5 paygrades, which is true of the WC3-4 if we assume that Blair and Eisen are a Colonel and a Captain respectively (in the Navy the commander of a vessel is addressed as Captain regardless of Rank, but there's certainly no indication that Eisen is not by rank and positon a Captain). The fact that they are of equal rank certainly does not preclude Blair from being subordinate to Eisen based on the positions they hold, but it's an odd relationship that the CAG would be subordinate to the Captain, who presumably must be operational command of the Battle Group.

Blair and Eisen are, indeed, the same grade - Blair is a TCSF Colonel (O6) and Eisen is a TCSN Captain (O6). In terms of position, Eisen is the Captain and Blair is the Wing Commander, which means that Eisen is senior. Th Wing Commander III novel explains it thusly: "Theoretically, they were of equal rank -- a Colonel in the Confederation Space Force and a Captain of the Line -- but aboard any ship in space, the commanding officer, regardless of rank, was always the senior officer (even if he was a mere lieutenant entertaining a visitor of higher rank)." This is based on how a carrier's chain of command worked during World War II rather than in the modern day Navy. Before 1983 a carrier's CAG was subordinate to her Captain.

It's especially odd considering the chain of command in WC2 and WCP is more like what I'm used to, which is to say the CAGs on board Concordia and Midway occupy positions alongside the Captains of said vessels below the group commanders Admiral Tolwyn and Commodore Blair respectively.

This isn't entirely correct. Admiral Tolwyn was actually Captain of the Concordia in Wing Commander II and Blair was outside the chain of command in Wing Commander Prophecy. Angel is certainly subordinate to Tolwyn in Wing Commander II... and I don't think we get a very good indication of how it works in Prophecy. It's possible that Commander Drake *is* equal to Captain Wilford, since the Midway seems to be based more on a modern-day supercarrier.

Which brings up another question... how is the rank structure arranged such that Blair as a fighter pilot hold Air-Force (or Space Force in the case) ranks until he becomes a flag officer, after which he holds a Navy rank? In fact, in the instructor ending of WC4, Paladin actually mentions "General" as one of the possibilities Blair passed up to be an instructor, which of course would be the rank after Colonel.

Blair actually switches services from TCSF to TCSN, which seems a lot easier in Wing Commander... it happens to a few characters (Blair and Grunt on WCA come to mind immediately). Here's a chart and some commentary I did on Wing Commander's ranks, based on the original version printed in Victory Streak: https://www.wcnews.com/articles/ranks.shtml It's very similar to the modern USN and USAF systems, w ith a few changes (for instance, swapping Lieutenant and Major Generals).

In WC3 who is the Commander of the BG? Eisen?, IIRC there is a CVE, 2-3 Destroyers or 2 destroyers and aFrigate and some transports?. (and IIRC Bondarevsky is the captain of one of those destroyers and/or the destroyer group)

The Victory's battle group was (for much of WC3) a light carrier (CV), two destroyers and a cruiser. Captain Bondarevsky was captain of the TCS Coventry (one of the destroyers) and the commander of Destroyer Squadron 67.

BTW, there is a pic of WC3 and/or 4 where you can see his insignia?

Eisen wears a solid silver bar in both games. Blair wears a gold bar with a vertical line across the top. See the chart I linked to above for all the known WC3/4 rank insignias.

Is "Commodore" an actual rank (both in WC and in our real life system)? I was under the impression that in the Navy, "Rear Admiral (LH)" is the first flag rang, and is the rank immediately above "Captain" (according to http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/.../officers.html). I was under the impression that "Commodore" might be a title given to a person who commands a group of multiple ships, but that it didn't necessarily imply a certain rank (although I would expect such a person to be at least a Captain, if not a flag rank).

Commodore is a real rank in Wing Commander, a one star Admiral. We've seen quite a few commodores over the years, including: Tolwyn (WCATV), Blair (WCP), Strevell (Arena), Uhler (RF) and Reissman (Privateer). It's no longer a real rank in the USN.

Theoretically, Blair was commanding the Midway Carrier Battlegroup, but the Midway has no escorts, so that's kind of a wierd dynamic. It was never clear to me if the Midway was Blair's flag ship to begin with or if he was simply observing her shakedown as a project leader. At any rate he presumably assumes operational command of Midway's expiditionary forces when hostilities break out with the Nephilum, so while he was not the Midway's Commanding Officer, he was the Midway's Commanding Officer's Commanding Officer (assuming of course that the Carrier Battlegroup chain of command is similer to what it is now) therefore to say that Blair was not in command of the Midway is not entirely accurate unless I'm grossly misreading the situation.

Blair was actually an observer overseeing the shakedown and not part of the chain of command.

 

[Dragon1]

I have given this topic a good deal of thought. This is all pure speculation, but with how easy it has been for major characters to transfer service branches, I have come to assume that Confed is in a way a joint service with different departments (Army, Navy, SF, Marines, INSYS, etc...).

Perhaps the branch of service changes per assignment.

Blair graduated from TCSN Academy Hilthros as a naval officer

He is assigned to the Claw as a fighter pilot and attends the Wing Commander Academy- a Space Force assignment, meaning that he is now as TCSF officer.

For a short period in 2654, Blair holds a naval grade while being assigned to a CF-117 squadron (perhaps the CF-117s were Navy planes and not Space Force planes).

I guess ultimately what I am trying to say is that the branch of service relies wholly on what the particular officer/NCO/enlisted person is assigned to.