Prototype fighters

frostytheplebe

frostytheplebe

Seventh Part of the Seal
We know that fighters such as the Tbolt and Excals were successful fighters as they are still around by the time prophecy comes out.

But what of the newest fighters in the other games?

Rapier II (WC1 configuration)
Morningstar
Crossbow
Bearcat
Dragon

With the exception of maybe the crossbow, i liked all the other new fighters. But we never see these after thier respective games. Do we know anything about thier history? When/if they entered production? Any indication of service record?

Ones that I think I can explain:

Bearcat: We do see a lot of them being built in WC4, so they must have entered active service... at least for a short time.

Dragon: I'm willing to bet this was a highly expensive fighter that no one wanted to mass produce due to its draining production costs.
 
The Dragon was made exculsivly for the Black Lance, if I remember correctly it costs as much to make one dragon as it did to make a fleet destroyer.

I'm not sure about the Bearcat, I'd like to have seen more of that fighter as well.
 
We know that fighters such as the Tbolt and Excals were successful fighters as they are still around by the time prophecy comes out.

But what of the newest fighters in the other games?
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In all likelyhood, they're still around - just because you aren't seeing a particular ship at a particular place doesn't mean it isn't serving somewhere (the fact that three games are set in 2669 with nearly completely different sets of Confederation ships available should be enough to make that clear).

Rapier II (WC1 configuration)
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The Rapier II is still around in Arena and was apparently a major player in the Nephilim war.

With the exception of maybe the crossbow, i liked all the other new fighters. But we never see these after thier respective games. Do we know anything about thier history? When/if they entered production? Any indication of service record?
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I believe we only know service entry dates. Rapier II - 2654, Morningstar - 2667, Crossbow - 2667, Bearcat - Unknown, Lance - 2672.

The Dragon was made exculsivly for the Black Lance, if I remember correctly it costs as much to make one dragon as it did to make a fleet destroyer.
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That's actually from some fanfic site, there's nothing in the continuity about Lances being especially expensive. I wonder if the 'Black' designation in the name means that there's an ordinary Lance serving somewhere... (that is to say, we see the 'F-110 Wasp' in Prophecy and then the 'F-110S Black Wasp' in Secret Ops. Could the 'Dragon' be the F-107S Black Lance, with an ordinary F-107 Lance being part of the normal fleet?)
 
Bandit LOAF said:
I wonder if the 'Black' designation in the name means that there's an ordinary Lance serving somewhere... (that is to say, we see the 'F-110 Wasp' in Prophecy and then the 'F-110S Black Wasp' in Secret Ops. Could the 'Dragon' be the F-107S Black Lance, with an ordinary F-107 Lance being part of the normal fleet?)
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That's an interesting hypothesis. Maybe then the Black Lance continued to serve in black ops after this time.
 
That's an interesting hypothesis. Maybe then the Black Lance continued to serve in black ops after this time.
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Certainly possible - they're still flying if Blair ends the game as an Admiral.

Back to the original thread, keep in mind that the 'groups' of fighters we see are often mixes of old and new designs. The 'ideal' carrier in 2669 probably has squadrons of Phantoms, Morningstars, Wraiths, Excaliburs, Banshees and Crossbows (which are all newer than the Victory's types).
 
Another possibility is that the "prototype" fighters so dramatically demonstrated the viability of a new technology that only a few were built before an even better design was implemented.

For a real life example, consider the P-80 Shooting Star, the United States' first jet powered fighter. The Germans and the British beat us to jet fighters, so we frantically designed the Shooting Star, and said, "hey cool, so this is how you build a jet fighter". The P-80 was better than any prop-driven fighter we had at the time. But because it was our first jet fighter, there were a lot of things that could have been done better that weren't because it was a new technology (e.g. it should have had swept wings). So we immediately took the knowledge gained from designing the P-80 and designed the F-86 Sabre (and other similar fighters). These "2nd Generation" jet fighters were much better than the Shooting Stars, but because the major technological leap had been to the Shooting Star, the newer designs came out right after the P-80. Hence, very few P-80's were ever made, and of those that were, only a handful saw active service (the design was actually converted to a trainer design and re-designated the T-33).

Another example closer to home would be search engines. I think Alta Vista or Infoseek or someone invented the first search engine, but then Yahoo immediately came and made a better one. And then Google made an even better one than that. So now no-one uses Yahoo or Alta Vista. That doesn't mean that Yahoo wasn't great--just that someone made a better one.

Something similar could have happened in game. Maybe the Morningstar was so revolutionary that it demonstrated new technologies, but they immediately incorporated these new technologies into other more streamlined or easier to mass produce fighter designs. (Aside: When was the Hellcat V put into service? I always thought it kind of resembled a Morningstar--maybe the Morningstar pioneered some new "WC3-Era" technologies back in WC2, and then they implemented them into the Hellcat as the production model...)

I remember reading somewhere that that is exactly the case with the Excalibur/Bearcat. The Excalibur demonstrated some revolutionary new fighter designs--Reaper cannons, pivoting gun mounts, exceptional speed and maneuverabilty combined with great shields (for its time). They took the know-how learned from designing the Excalibur and implemented those technologies into a new, even better design--the Bearcat--which was put into mass production. Hence the Excalibur production run was probably short lived. The only thing is I think it was a fanfic sight that I saw that on, so I don't know that it's part of the official canon...
 
Bandit LOAF said:
That's actually from some fanfic site, there's nothing in the continuity about Lances being especially expensive. I wonder if the 'Black' designation in the name means that there's an ordinary Lance serving somewhere... (that is to say, we see the 'F-110 Wasp' in Prophecy and then the 'F-110S Black Wasp' in Secret Ops. Could the 'Dragon' be the F-107S Black Lance, with an ordinary F-107 Lance being part of the normal fleet?)
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Well we do see one at the end of Wc4 (loss) thats flying with the large invasion fleet. Is it possibly the "Lance" you refer?
 
The Wing Commander Academy manual states the Morningstar went on to become the premiere killer of Kilrathi capital ships in the late war years..
 
Farbourne said:
Something similar could have happened in game. Maybe the Morningstar was so revolutionary that it demonstrated new technologies, but they immediately incorporated these new technologies into other more streamlined or easier to mass produce fighter designs. (Aside: When was the Hellcat V put into service? I always thought it kind of resembled a Morningstar--maybe the Morningstar pioneered some new "WC3-Era" technologies back in WC2, and then they implemented them into the Hellcat as the production model...)

I remember reading somewhere that that is exactly the case with the Excalibur/Bearcat. The Excalibur demonstrated some revolutionary new fighter designs--Reaper cannons, pivoting gun mounts, exceptional speed and maneuverabilty combined with great shields (for its time). They took the know-how learned from designing the Excalibur and implemented those technologies into a new, even better design--the Bearcat--which was put into mass production. Hence the Excalibur production run was probably short lived. The only thing is I think it was a fanfic sight that I saw that on, so I don't know that it's part of the official canon...
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Eh, the Hellcat is in general a very old ship, and it's not using any special technology in WC3. If the Morningstar was an early concept design, it was likely for the Excalibur. But I doubt the Excalibur was a concept design itself, as it still makes up fighter squadrons in WCP. I would have to say, if the Bearcat was built off the Excalibur's new technology, that it is an economized Excalibur for the post-war period where Confed was looking to cut back on spending.
 
I thoguht the Dragon wasn't just built special for the Black Lance but built by the Black Lance, so the regular fleet didn't have access to it because it was never built in their shipyards, at least until Blair becomes an Admiral.:cool:
 
Bandit LOAF said:
Could the 'Dragon' be the F-107S Black Lance, with an ordinary F-107 Lance being part of the normal fleet?)
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Probably not, as I remember a passage in the WC4 novel along the lines that Blair had never seen anything like the fighter before, but could recognize elements of the Excalibur in its design.
 
Another possibility is that the "prototype" fighters so dramatically demonstrated the viability of a new technology that only a few were built before an even better design was implemented.
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It's a good theory, but in almost every case listed above we know that the fighter in question went on to regular service (the only exception is the Lance, which wasn't necessarily designed for regular service in the first place). The Academy manual gives a bit of background on the later service of the Crossbow and Morningstar, we see the production variant of the Wraith in Armada, Excaliburs show up several times after WC3...

(Aside: When was the Hellcat V put into service? I always thought it kind of resembled a Morningstar--maybe the Morningstar pioneered some new "WC3-Era" technologies back in WC2, and then they implemented them into the Hellcat as the production model...)
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The Hellcat is an older design - it shows up (in the simulator and as a statue) in the first episode of Wing Commander Academy (early 2654).

I remember reading somewhere that that is exactly the case with the Excalibur/Bearcat. The Excalibur demonstrated some revolutionary new fighter designs--Reaper cannons, pivoting gun mounts, exceptional speed and maneuverabilty combined with great shields (for its time). They took the know-how learned from designing the Excalibur and implemented those technologies into a new, even better design--the Bearcat--which was put into mass production. Hence the Excalibur production run was probably short lived. The only thing is I think it was a fanfic sight that I saw that on, so I don't know that it's part of the official canon...
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It's actually the Excalibur and the Lance, not the Bearcat (if anyone ever tries to sell you background on the Bearcat, they're lying - we know *nothing* about it other than that it appears in WC4.) Excaliburs are still around in various roles in Secret Ops, so it's not a great analogue for the P-80 story. That said, I think it's hinting at the same thing -- the reason fighters progressed *so* quickly in the 1950s and 1960s was because of new technologies starting with the jet engine... and Wing Commander follows that with the matter/anti-matter engines which first appear on the Excalibur.

Well we do see one at the end of Wc4 (loss) thats flying with the large invasion fleet. Is it possibly the "Lance" you refer?
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Lance is the 'official' name of the ship - Dragon is a callsign frequently used by Tolwyn's forces. This is where the 'Black Lance' name for the group comes from (in continuity). The conspiracy often refers to itself as only 'The Project'.
 
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