Once Again...
- Thread starter Bob McDob
- Start date
There's an upper limit on the size of the Kilrathi fleet present, though. A good chunk of the mobile units in the Kilrathi fleet had already been smashed in the ambush. What was likely to be on hand was pretty much what got rerouted away from the ambush. Yes, there could have been problems, and he did risk losing the Concordia, but I think the risk was minimal.
1.) In the event of a battle, Tolwyn would have been able to get solid data on the Kilrathi before they were within strike range of him. He would have been in range of the Tarawa before the Kilrathi were in range of him. If things were really bad, he could always pack up and leave without the Tarawa (it would be a disappointing outcome, but it was an option).
2.) As mentioned above, the Kilrathi fleet had already been hammered. Confed planned from the get-go that the Kilrathi would know an ambush was in place and that they would allocate as much of their fleet as they could spare to smashing that ambush. If they'd had spare mobile forces, they wouldn't have needed to pull ships from the fleet that Confed ambushed, so there could NOT have been more ships. So Tolwyn had a pretty good idea of what he was looking at as far as cat strength, and I would hazard a guess that the anti-Tarawa group was sufficient to smash the Tarawa and her escorts, but would be hard pressed by the addition of a Dreadnought.
Morally I'm all for Tolwyn's actions, I think it was both a great political move-and a rather confident military move-also. However, I CAN see the negative sides to the military idea, as a portion of the Kilrathi fleet had pulled back to engage the Tarawa. Tolywn could have simply left them, but knowing him-at the time-he'd have fought with the Concordia to the very end to try to get them out. That's really my problem with his move, not so much the boldness of it-it was brave, kinda stupid, but still he had the option of retreating. Yet, he wouldn't have, had it come to that. (Not without the Tarawa at least.)
Other than the fact that he himself would not have left with them, I find the move very tactful and extremely keen. Also, having Confed's best front line carrier next to your homeworld probably shook up the Kats a bit more than a minor transport/carrier.
Other than the fact that he himself would not have left with them, I find the move very tactful and extremely keen. Also, having Confed's best front line carrier next to your homeworld probably shook up the Kats a bit more than a minor transport/carrier.
Didn't want to requote your whole post, but didn't want confusion as to who I was replying to.
First off, there were other Kilrathi carriers not involved with this action, the carriers sent to Vukar and those then redirected back to Kilrah were part of the Home Fleet. The Home Fleet is the Emperor's personal fleet and it's main job is to protect him and Kilrah. It was used at Vukar because the things Confed did there were done as a personal insult to him. The Home Fleet consisted of 10 carriers and 3 of them were diverted back to deal with the Tarawa. The cats lost 5 of those 7 carriers at Vukar, and while the toher two were severely damaged, at the point Tolwyn left, they may have still posed some type of threat to the Wolfhound and Gettysburg.
Tolwyn knew where the Tarawa was, but the impression the books gave was that the Kilrathi knew their space and jump points better than Confed did, which of course makes sense. The Cats might have been able to flank him as they were flanking the Tarawa. Tolwyn couldn't know that Thrak hadn't called back some more carriers from the front. Granted, since it was a matter of honor for the Imperial line, it would be best if Home Fleet Units took out the Tarawa. Thrak also had much more firepower than the Tarawa, so Tolwyn could make a somewhat safe bet that Thrak would not call in support. However, as Bainbridge pointed out, if Geirson hadn't sacraficed himself to keep Thrak's carriers back, Tolwyn would have been in serious trouble. Tolwyn could not know that would happen.
As for the odds, three fairly fresh cat carriers and escorts (made up of the best of the Kilrathi) against the Tarawa, her escorts and the Concordia is not what one would call good odds, especially since the Concordia had just been in a battle.
I think Skyfire has the best comments of all regarding the situation - good move morally and tacticaly, but Towlyn probably wouldn't have backed out even if it had meant almost certain death.
The thing about flanking the Tarawa, however, is that if that had occurred, the cats would have been looking the wrong way. Fighter patrols would have been flying in the direction of the Tarawa, and when the Concordia came up behind them (flying with a cat IFF, iirc), the Kilrathi ship would have been the one being ambushed.
Still, since the Concordia would have promptly lost the element of surprise after that, it would probably have meant that the Concordia had to run back for the Confed border.
As for calling in support from other fleets - the book makes a point of playing up the political infighting that is going on within the Empire. Calling in support from one of the other fleets would have probably been a fatal exposure of weakness. While Tolwyn couldn't have known the exact cat response, he's probably seen enough similar situations in the past to get a good feel for how the cats are going to respond. Then there's also the fact that if the cats HAD been disposed to call in additional fleet elements, they would have done so right at the start, and sent Thrakhath to the ambush instead of pulling him out of the battle.
On a slightly more humorous note - is Bluehair on board the Concordia at this time? With him on board, there's no WAY Confed could lose...
(joke)
The thing about flanking the Tarawa, however, is that if that had occurred, the cats would have been looking the wrong way. Fighter patrols would have been flying in the direction of the Tarawa, and when the Concordia came up behind them (flying with a cat IFF, iirc), the Kilrathi ship would have been the one being ambushed.
Still, since the Concordia would have promptly lost the element of surprise after that, it would probably have meant that the Concordia had to run back for the Confed border.
As for calling in support from other fleets - the book makes a point of playing up the political infighting that is going on within the Empire. Calling in support from one of the other fleets would have probably been a fatal exposure of weakness. While Tolwyn couldn't have known the exact cat response, he's probably seen enough similar situations in the past to get a good feel for how the cats are going to respond. Then there's also the fact that if the cats HAD been disposed to call in additional fleet elements, they would have done so right at the start, and sent Thrakhath to the ambush instead of pulling him out of the battle.
On a slightly more humorous note - is Bluehair on board the Concordia at this time? With him on board, there's no WAY Confed could lose...
(joke)
I almost made the bluehair comment as well.
The Cats were flanking the Tarawa, iirc. What I was arguing was, given their knowledge of the area, it might have been possible to do the same with the Concordia. As for political pressure to not call in support, as I mentioned in my post, I agree Tolwyn could have forseen Thrak not calling in help for just the Tarawa. However, if the Concordia were in such a position as to where Thrak could use non-Home Fleet ships to get it as well, I think he woud do it, and just make sure that they left the Tarawa for him. The Concordia never got to Kilrah, so it didn't matter how it was taken down.
The Cats were flanking the Tarawa, iirc. What I was arguing was, given their knowledge of the area, it might have been possible to do the same with the Concordia. As for political pressure to not call in support, as I mentioned in my post, I agree Tolwyn could have forseen Thrak not calling in help for just the Tarawa. However, if the Concordia were in such a position as to where Thrak could use non-Home Fleet ships to get it as well, I think he woud do it, and just make sure that they left the Tarawa for him. The Concordia never got to Kilrah, so it didn't matter how it was taken down.
True. The odd thing IMHO is that the Concordia seems to have pretty much waltzed into Kilrathi space in order to rescue the Tarawa (btw, anyone happen to know off-hand exactly how deep into Kilrathi space the Tarawa was when the Concordia caught up with her?). I mean, even without the Home Fleet, you still would have expected some resistance from ships permanentely assigned to system patrol duties, but either that Kilrathi IFF worked REALLY well, or the Kilrathi forward systems were amazingly empty. That would seem to indicate something about fleet deployment philosophies, although it might take a while to puzzle through it.
Of course, you can always imagine the following very, very sadistic ending...
Tarawa and escorts make a run for the jump point, and instead of being helped by the unexpected collapse of a jump point (which delays Thrakhath), arrive at one of their points just AFTER it collapses. They promptly get cornered and slaughtered. Then Concordia comes looking for them, penetrates even more deeply into Kilrathi space than it ever should have in the first place, and fails to find anything more conclusive than a collapsed jump node.
It DOES, however, find Thrakhath's very angry collection of home fleet carriers...
If LOAF's map is correct (no offense LOAF, I think you and some other's were still not sure where everything was, or at least how things were connected), the Tarawa was not far from Vukar. However, how the Confed fleet got there is also an interesting question. I don't have my original map here, so I'm not sure what LOAF et al added and what is originally there.
The map is at this link
http://www.blacklance.org/loaf/averybigmapindeed.png
The way the book reads(p. 275) the Tarawa at that point is two jumps from Jugara. The Kilrathi carriers show up when they jump into the next system and that is also where Tolwyn shows up to save their butts. Jugara is supposed to have a long jump that takes one close to Confed lines, but I don't think that is on the map yet. If that is the case, Tolwyn didn't have to go in very deep. However, on the map Jugara is one jump from Vukar, so it could be the fleet jumped there, then to Vukar and then into an empty system. They jumped back into Vukar and then when Tolwyn left he went to Jugara and then Baragh. It's hard to tell.
End Run does state the Tarawa saw only one transport on its way in until it announced it's presence. Assuming Tolwyn followed that way in at least part of the way, he may have been able to slip in unnoticed. I guess it depends on how good the sensors in a system are. You would think they'd have probes at jump point, to at least detect traffic, but who knows.
The map is at this link
http://www.blacklance.org/loaf/averybigmapindeed.png
The way the book reads(p. 275) the Tarawa at that point is two jumps from Jugara. The Kilrathi carriers show up when they jump into the next system and that is also where Tolwyn shows up to save their butts. Jugara is supposed to have a long jump that takes one close to Confed lines, but I don't think that is on the map yet. If that is the case, Tolwyn didn't have to go in very deep. However, on the map Jugara is one jump from Vukar, so it could be the fleet jumped there, then to Vukar and then into an empty system. They jumped back into Vukar and then when Tolwyn left he went to Jugara and then Baragh. It's hard to tell.
End Run does state the Tarawa saw only one transport on its way in until it announced it's presence. Assuming Tolwyn followed that way in at least part of the way, he may have been able to slip in unnoticed. I guess it depends on how good the sensors in a system are. You would think they'd have probes at jump point, to at least detect traffic, but who knows.
Nice.
Yeah, you'd think that, but most everything in Wing Commander seems to hint at both sides' forces being able to slip through Jump Points undetected (unless a ship happens to be present right then and there).
Perhaps something about Jump Points makes probes impossible to maintain in close proximity to them? Dunno.
Like you say, how exactly Confed got to the Vukar system in the first place is a good question. Also, the short distance that Tolwyn had to travel adds a little credence to his decision. If he had run into a sizable Kilrathi task force, he could theoretically have drawn them back to Vukar, and added them as additional statistics to the ambush.
Yeah, you'd think that, but most everything in Wing Commander seems to hint at both sides' forces being able to slip through Jump Points undetected (unless a ship happens to be present right then and there).
Perhaps something about Jump Points makes probes impossible to maintain in close proximity to them? Dunno.
Like you say, how exactly Confed got to the Vukar system in the first place is a good question. Also, the short distance that Tolwyn had to travel adds a little credence to his decision. If he had run into a sizable Kilrathi task force, he could theoretically have drawn them back to Vukar, and added them as additional statistics to the ambush.
Death
gh0d (Administrator)
Tolwyn over the years
First off, Tolwyn's not been fond of Blair for a long time, even after he was cleared of the loss of the Tiger's Claw.
As for his changes over the years, remember that at the time of End Run, the Battle of Terra was roughly a year away still, as was the betrayal (as Tolwyn saw it) of humanity by the Confederation leadership signing the false peace and gutting the wartime fleet, leaving them wide open to the Kilrathi, resulting in the loss of billions of people, including more than a few of whom were those under his command.
Also after ER was the loss of the Behemoth, into which he'd put a decade of work then lost due to another betrayal, this time of Hobbes. With the Behemoth died his ability to "win the war outright" and be the Confederation's savior, which probably didn't exactly help matters any.
Considering how much was lost, seemingly "out of the blue", that he snapped isn't exactly surprising.
First off, Tolwyn's not been fond of Blair for a long time, even after he was cleared of the loss of the Tiger's Claw.
As for his changes over the years, remember that at the time of End Run, the Battle of Terra was roughly a year away still, as was the betrayal (as Tolwyn saw it) of humanity by the Confederation leadership signing the false peace and gutting the wartime fleet, leaving them wide open to the Kilrathi, resulting in the loss of billions of people, including more than a few of whom were those under his command.
Also after ER was the loss of the Behemoth, into which he'd put a decade of work then lost due to another betrayal, this time of Hobbes. With the Behemoth died his ability to "win the war outright" and be the Confederation's savior, which probably didn't exactly help matters any.
Considering how much was lost, seemingly "out of the blue", that he snapped isn't exactly surprising.
I always associated Tolwyn's "Plan" with a counter to the "Group" who was trying to pull the coup. I may be wrong about that, it's been some time since I read all the books, but since they were recruiting some excellent vets, I saw the BL as Tolwyn's personal strike force against any attempt to overthrow the government.
Given Tolwyn's belief that the civilian government was unable to make the decisions that would defend humanity, and his own efforts to deceive and manipulate the Confed Senate in WC4, I somehow doubt that safegaurding democracy was the primary reason for the formation of the Black Lance.
Best, Raptor
Best, Raptor
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Disagree -- it is simply far, far too easy to label those whose actions we disagree with as evil fascists and close the book. I believe Tolwyn's morals were far more complex.
Consider False Colors: Elements of the military plot to take over the government to restart the war because they believe mankind has become weak without a chance to fight. This is exactly what Tolwyn believes -- and the end result (a war) is exactly what he is concurrently plotting to accomplish. But he cannot simply side with Belisarus: he cannot support a group which will remove the civilian government.
Tolwyn believes that there must be a war... but he also still believes that the democracy is sacred. Therefore, he takes it upon himself to use the government against *itself*. To make it honestly believe that it must support a war. In so doing, he puts the blood on his hands alone. He understands what Blair, in his stuggles, fails to: he is a ruined soul, the necessary sacrafice of so long war. He believes therefore that because he has already traded his humanity that he may break the rules as long as the government does not.