New Fighter Conjecture

Dragon1

Rear Admiral
Hi everyone,

Using what we've learned from Arena and the Star Soldier manual, I have come up with a list of Confed fighters with designations and service entry dates. Now of course much of this is conjectural, I have really tried to combine all information from what we know from the novels, games, movie, to create a list that is the most accurate that I could compile.

This is just for fun...so feel free to please pick it apart and give me your thoughts.

P.S. all of the stuff marked with an * is what has been established in the series.

Fighters

Naval
*CF-105 Scimitar, Space Interceptor- 2518
*CF-117 Rapier I, Space Interceptor- 2536*
CF-120 Banshee I, Escort Fighter- 2560 (WCIV UBW)
CF-123 Falcon, Fighter/Bomber- 2599
CF-127 Wildcat, Space Interceptor- 2604
*P-64 Ferret, Light Patrol Fighter- 2617
*SAR-23 Condor, Search and Rescue Craft- 2625
*CF-131 Broadsword, Missile Support Bomber (later, Torpedo Bomber)- 2630
*CF-133d Transport- 2632

Space Force
F-2 Gotha, Superiority Fighter- 2522
A-4 Thor, Bomber- 2529
F-5 Minotaur, Surface-to-Space Escort- 2554
A-7 Trident, Medium Payload Bomber- 2563
*C-9 Pelican, Heavy Payload Freighter- 2570
*F-10 Merlin, Superiority Fighter- 2574
A-11 Gladiator, Large Payload Bomber- 2590
F-12 Hurricane, Surface-to-Space Escort- 2592
*A-14 Raptor, Medium Payload Fighter/Bomber (later, Heavy Fighter)- 2608
F-19 Hummer, Scout Bomber- 2614
*F-27 Arrow V, Light Interceptor (later, Light Fighter)- 2628
F-33 Corsair, Superiority Fighter- 2639
*F-36 Hornet, Light Fighter- 2640
*F-38 Talon, Light Fighter- 2642
F-40 Hellcat V, Medium Fighter- 2643
*F-57 Sabre, Heavy Fighter- 2645
*F/A-76 Longbow- Torpedo Bomber/SAR- 2648
*A-15 Gladius, Heavy Fighter/Torpedo Bomber- 2652
*A-17 Broadsword, Improved Heavy Bomber (Space Force variant)- 2654
*F-44 Rapier II, Medium Fighter- 2654 (perhaps a competitor to the Hellcat V?)
*HF-66 Thunderbolt VII, Heavy Fighter- 2658 (built from the chasis of a Rapier II)
*F-54 Epee, Light Fighter- 2661
*F-98 Phantom, Medium Fighter- 2662
*F-71 Stiletto, Light Fighter- 2664
*F-95 Morningstar, Heavy Fighter- 2667
*A-18 Crossbow, Heavy Bomber- 2667
*F-97 Wraith, Medium Fighter- 2667
*A-20 Banshee II, Fighter/Bomber- 2669
*F-103 Excalibur, Heavy Fighter/Atmospheric Fighter/Bomber- 2669
*F-105 Tigershark, Medium Fighter- 2671
*F-106 Piranha, Light Fighter- 2672
F-104 Bearcat, Heavy Fighter- 2673
*F-107 Lance, Experimental Heavy/Stealth Fighter- 2673
*F-108 Panther, Space Superiority Fighter- 2675
*TB-80 Devastator, Torpedo Bomber- 2676
*TB-81 Shrike, Torpedo Bomber- 2676
*F-110 Wasp, Interceptor- 2678
*F-109 Vampire, Space Superiority Fighter- 2680
 
I remember something about the Thunderbolt being a product of the "Rapier". Given the the HF designation of the Thunderbolt, it is possible that it is related to the Rapier I, but that would make it really old.

LOAF had stated in a previous thread that what we saw in WCA can be confirmed as an Epee. The WC12USG clearly places the Epee's debut in 2661, even going as far as to indicate it as a replacement for the Hornet (ref. http://www.crius.net/zone/showpost.php?p=287743&postcount=6)
 
No, the only Rapier II/Thunderbolt connection is that they use the same wing spar, as mentioned by Pliers in the WC4 novelization. That's how he managed to fix Blair's banged-up Thud, by making use of cannibalized parts from broken ships. From a purely in-universe manufacturing viewpoint, it makes sense to have as much as possible useable across multiple designs, to make more efficient use of production lines by having only to do 3 different parts, not 30 (those numbers are random examples, for illustration).
 
Well, there's a fairly recent thread on some entry dates and service lengths:
http://www.crius.net/zone/showthread.php?t=21916 Here. But I guess the discussion died out somewhere along the line.

Phantom intro should be 2669, it's listed as new in Armada.

Not quite sure why Sabre's introduction is so early, the fighter's designator suggests an intro date in the 60s rather than 40s. (Discounting the Academy appearance, which I'm sure can be explained through some other finesse.) Note also the Sabre's only onto a B-model revision as of 2667/2668(per End Run) which makes an earlier introduction date somewhat unlikely.

Why is the UBW Banshee(II) dated so old? The performance of the fighter (admittedly perhaps due to gameplay balance more than anything else) suggests it's not THAT old, even if it's lightly armed by "modern" standards.

Piece of conjecture, could the UBW Banshee in fact be the "Corsair" referred to Action Stations? In some respects this might mirror the WW2 Corsair/Hellcat comparison, with one being a finicky, difficult craft to fly with superior performance (the lasers and stormfire perhaps making it more difficult to handle) and the other being an easily produced, easy to fly fighter.
 
Cool. Thanks for the link and the heads up Nob. I must have missed that thread earlier. I am pouring through the info and will have an updated list soon.

Also, must the fighter designators follow a chronological order? We see the Sabre in WCA in 2654, although its designation is F-57, when in the same year we see the F-44 Rapier II coming online. Can it not be explained that the F-44-being Confed's best superiority fighter to date-was assigned its number in the 2640s and perhaps spent 10 years in development?
 
I find it unlikely for two reasons.

Again the variant designators. The F-57A is the mainline heavy fighter used aboard Concordia in 2666, and the F-57B is a brand-new variant used in 2667 and first deployed aboard the Wake-CVEs. It seems a stretch that a fighter can go without a major revision in that span, particularly if the F-44 introduced over a decade later has gone through 7 model changes by that time. (A, B, C, D, E, F, G).

Additionally, the F-57 is supposed to be difficult to obtain for civilians (per Krueger's line in FA when he castigates Hunter for losing a Sabre-A) given that it's a frontline fighter, so seeing it in pirate service seems again, a very large stretch. There is also the issue that the armament of the fighter in WCA is significantly different from what we see of the Sabre itself, combined with the lack of model revisions in that span, we're left with a bit of a problem. It's more likely the fighter from WCA is something either from the same manufaccturer, or an earlier model that served as the basis for the F-57 when it was actually placed in development.

As an additional and I suppoes third reason.

To date designators have been sequential. The only major outlier we see is the Longbow and perhaps the Sabre. Since we're discounting the Epee from WCA and switching its intro date to 2661 (F-54, remember) it seems strange that a F-57 is entering service much earlier.
 
Additionally, the F-57 is supposed to be difficult to obtain for civilians (per Krueger's line in FA when he castigates Hunter for losing a Sabre-A) given that it's a frontline fighter, so seeing it in pirate service seems again, a very large stretch.
While I also think the WCA fighter is different than the Sabre, this particular point is not valid - in WC2, we even see pirates flying prototype Crossbows. The pirates in question, of course, are actually mutineers - but if Karnes is anything to go by, the pirates in WCA are also actually mutineers. Karnes one day simply flew away from his carrier, obviously taking his fighter with him - most likely, the rest of his gang did the same.

(additionally, all if this may well be irrelevant, because I can't seem to recall Karnes' pirates flying Sabres... of course, it's been a while)
 
Karnes was the only one who had the sabre shaped thing, I think.

I suppose it's possible they were just fighters they ran away in, though deserting with high grade military hardware in it of itself sounds a bit of a stretch. The YA-18s at least had the excuse that it was the entire ship that mutineed rather than just one or two pilots.
 
For the Longbow, is it possible that in Academy it may have been specifically an SAR craft with a different name and designation? Then, sometime around 2665, a militarized version of the SAR craft (think the AC-130 gunship to the standard C-130) entered service as the F/A-76 Longbow. In that manner, it may be still something of a novelty to Tolwyn in 2672.

I am in the process of re-working the list a bit. How does the designation and entry date of the Hellcat sit with you guys? I like the WW2 parallel of Corsair-Hellcat-Wildcat, and I have placed the Hellcat's launch some years before the Rapier II. My logic being that we see Rapiers throughout, to the end of the war and beyond. We know that the Tigershark was developed to replace the Hellcat. Keeping in mind that the F-44 Rapier II was essentially a replacement for the 100+ year old CF-105s and CF-117s, I can't see that the less than 30 year old Rapier II was too old. Also though, it would appear that the Hellcat was Confed's star fighter during the period of WCA (2653-2654).
 
Why are you separating the fighters into a naval and Space Force category? Did the confederation navy operate its own fighter squadrons separate from the space forces? I was under the impression that the space forces operated all the fighters, including those deployed to carriers and other naval ships. I'm not saying your wrong, I just want to be clarified on this so i understand correctly.
 
Hi ck9791,

To answer your question, we see numerous examples of specifically naval and space force fighter pilots. A number of key characters change service rather abruptly with little apparent reason. In the WCM, Blair's commission transfers. Keeping in mind also that he graduated from the TCSN Academy on Hilthros, yet we know him through primarily his Space Force career. Tolwyn too was a fighter pilot. One would also assume that in order to be qualified to command a Confed CV, one must have been a fighter pilot at one time or another, although the fact that Paulsen commanded the Lexington might discredit this point.

My feelings on this are that prior to the war, the services were much more competitive with each other, and that the various branches had their own ships for their own needs. For example, the navy most likely operated shorter ranged fighters that could effectively scout and secure the Battleline, and missile ships, like the Broadsword that could ensure supremacy over numerous small attack craft. The SF though focused more on surface warfare and may have been an offshoot of the TC Army, like the USAF. Because Wing Commander takes place predominantly in space, I think we tend to forget just how big planets are.

This most likely changed during the war as immediate combat requirements forced a certain joint design philosophy. As everything became more multi-role, we see the designations going from very specific "space-to-surface escort" to "medium" or "light" fighter. Of course the post-war period saw a return to very specific fighter types. When a naval officer is assigned to a Space Force unit, his/her commission may have been transfered as a point of routine. Who really knows though (other than maybe LOAF)?
 
The distinction between the TCSF/TCN seem to be fairly haphazard because it always seems you're TCSF in the games but pilots tend to be TCN in other material (movie, novels).

I don't think there's any quick or easy way to separate fighters between the two, because you do see many being used between both services.
 
I don't think there's any quick or easy way to separate fighters between the two, because you do see many being used between both services.

This might be a product of the war. All services may have their own variants, but I would imagine that prior to the war, the lines between the services were harder. Why else would their be a separate TCSF and TCN, if not that they had different philosophies and different designs.

After World War II, the Airforce focused on supersonic bombers, while the Navy liked subsonic. Their were of course crossovers, like the A-7 Corsair II which had both Navy and Airforce variations. But there were no Navy F-105 bombers and no Airforce A-6 bombers (that I know of anyway), they represented differing philosophies. The F-4/F-110 fighter was shared by both services.
 
To date designators have been sequential. The only major outlier we see is the Longbow and perhaps the Sabre. Since we're discounting the Epee from WCA and switching its intro date to 2661 (F-54, remember) it seems strange that a F-57 is entering service much earlier.

Designations are presumably assigned in the order that each ship class is commissioned, not in the order that they begin active service. Thus, one fighter type may spend only three years in development and be in active service before another fighter type that was commissioned earlier (hence having a lower number) yet spend six or eight years in development.
 
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