LOAF Fixes a Macintosh

[Bandit LOAF]

I know I have enough Wing Commander projects to last ten lifetimes, but the recent news about Steve Jobs inspired me to finally get to work on something I've been meaning to do for myself for many years: build the ideal old Macintosh for playing Wing Commander. My aim is to go from some old surplus to a kickass machine for Super Wing Commander, Wing Commander III and Wing Commander IV, tracking down all the cool extras they support in the process. I thought I'd start a thread so folks who are interested can follow my progress... and we can use it as a reference for anyone else wanting to do this.

First I should say that I have absolutely NO idea how old Macs work. As I mentioned in the other thread, I grew up with an Apple ][... but irony of ironies my father turned the skills he learned on that early Apple into a job for IBM and we never owned a Mac. I have a Macbook as my regular notebook and I use a Mini as my HTPC today... but beyond the occasional encounter in a middle school library, I've never touched anything before OSX. So this will be an adventure! Sort of.

(... and it goes without saying that I could use some helps from folks here who *didn't* skip the Macintosh...)

So, here's where we start. I picked this up five or six years back at a surplus sale for a few bucks. I suspect it belonged to a university:

It's a Power Mac 7300/180, which would have been top of the line a short time after Wing Commander IV came out. I'm not necessarily married to her, but that seems like a reasonable place to start. I also have no idea what the actual condition of the thing is. All I've ever done is listen to see if it boots up, which it does (I hear a startup chime, anyway.) I never picked up a monitor or keyboard/mouse or anything else...

Until yesterday! Amazon has Primed me one of these, which is sitting on my doorstep at home right now: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002J1JAE

That should let me plug a regular monitor in. Like all houses, mine is full of old CRTs so I can use one of those for now. It sounds like you can also get an LCD to work with an old Mac which I will want to do eventually (I don't have much space left, for you see my house is full of old CRTs...)

So, there's our cliffhanger--what will the monitor reveal? Stay tuned to find out.

(I also bought an ADB keyboard/mouse off of eBay, which should show up in a few days.)

If anyone wants to keep track of how much this project costs--and say yell at me when it outgrosses buying an old 3DO--we're at: $20 for the computer, $10 for the DB-15-to-VGA plug and $15 for keyboard/mouse.

Edit: THRILLING UPDATE -- the keyboard and mouse will be here on Tuesday.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Made it home to find a large box from Amazon with the tiny DB-15-to-VGA connector (also, neither here nor there, but a second package containing a promotional LEGO clownfish.)

So I dove into my long-abandoned desk area to grab the most readily available CRT. And it was a big one. Let me tell you, dear reader: if anyone ever tells you that a 21" Trinitron is not really, really, really heavy then they are an enormous liar. With some pulling and shoving and oh-look-millions-of-stinkbugsing I dragged the monitor to meet what was most likely its final duty.

Gotta move that finding-an-LCD step up, I think!

And so I lovingly attached the power cables, put on the new dongle, hooked the parts together and so forth. Power on the monitor--green, no source, yellow standby. And then I stepped back and considered something for the first time:

I had absolutely no idea how you turn a 1997 Macintosh on.

I had done it once, when I bought it, to listen to the boot up... but not since. Was it the weird nub under the CD drive? No, further feeling around revealed a second one of those on the other side, they were for releasing the front of the case. On the back? Nope, a flashlight and a magnifier revealed no buttons.

So I whipped out my trusty iPhone, Google'd up Apple's support site which happily had a PDF manual for the 7300 right there. I zoomed it into iBooks and found that the on button was... right in front of my face, a tiny recessed button on the bottom left of the front. D'oh.

I turned it on and waited with baited breath. Pause. Startup chime! Pause again... the monitor switches to green, there is a video source! And then I was greeted with this beautiful sight:

Thank Sivar! Now I know it has Mac OS 9.1, which may be problematic. I have a memory that SWC may not work with such a new operating system... in which case I'll have to figure out how you go back to 7 or 8. But I'm sure it can be done!

We'll find out more on Tuesday when the actual input devices arrive. Can't wait!

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Realization: I need to pick up the Macintosh release of System Shock! Does it have Wing 0? We'll find out!

Just ordered one from Amazon. Claims to still be sealed... hope it's nice!

 

[Vinman]

This is cool, I love older computers, but I'd never given much attention to Apple's computers beyond the Apple ][ and Mac Classic. I can't wait to see what happens!

 

[Wojo]

I investigated this some time ago to try and run it on my macbook. From memory it required 7.x, but I believe with the 9.x series you can 'boot into' 7 or 8, a bit like you used to boot to DOS mode with Win 95. I think. Like you, I'm a PC. Beep boop beep.

I also tried the 3do emulation - for that really frame-rate-erific shockingly laggy experience I can't recommend it enough.

 

[Dundradal]

Thankfully I was *the* Mac guy in #wing-commander for years. I still remember arguing how awesome "Rhapsody" would be for the Mac...then it never came out

But I always held the line as every old wingnut here basically used to argue right on back...hahaha

Good thing you didn't have a IIci or something LOAF. Their buttons were on the back.

I would give SWC a try on 9.1. I want to say the game played fast or the movies did on 9.1

I do not recommend going to System 7. System 8.5 or 8.6 might be the best bet if 9.1 is a pain for SWC. The thing is 9.1 is probably best for WC3 and WC4.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Thanks for the comment, folks! It's going to be a long weekend waiting for that keyboard/mouse...

Some questions to be answered, from thinking about this last night.

* What's the deal with hard drives? First: can the Macintosh WCs be run off the hard drive... and if so, what is my path to add a second drive to this machine? Macs of this era used SCSI drives, right? What kind can I put in it, and how?

* Can a Macintosh from 1997 read CDs burned today? I will want to transfer the Super Wing Commander and Wing Commander IV demos over along with various erratta (I'll make a list of everything when I actually do it, for future reference.)

* Could a 166 mhz computer be too fast for Super Wing Commander? I'm hearing that G4s and possibly G3s needed to be slowed down for the game. Not sure if that will be a problem for this slightly older model.

* What kind of LCD can I use? I need something that's 4:3 with a VGA input *I think* that has a 1024x768 mode. That may be a significantly limiting factor today. Anyone know monitors?

* Will the OLD Origin games work on this computer? I'm not /that/ interested in this since they predate Wing Commander and will be incredibly expensive to find... but I am curious. Origin released Ultima III, Autoduel, Moebius and Ogre for the Mac in the 1980s. There's also a licensed color version of Ultima III from the early 90s, I believe, that I should research.

* If I need an older OS... how do I get it and how do I install it over the newer one?

* What kind of cool flight hardware should I start looking for? Will the Mac Wing Commanders support the whole FCS/WCS/RCS setup I use on the PC?

* Sound. How does sound work on a Mac? Is it on the motherboard? What kind of output does SWC/WC3/WC4 give me in terms of needing a speaker setup?

I also tried the 3do emulation - for that really frame-rate-erific shockingly laggy experience I can't recommend it enough.

Heh, I bought a 3DO when SWC came out, so I'm covered there! (My first console.)​

 

[Mace]

* What kind of LCD can I use? I need something that's 4:3 with a VGA input *I think* that has a 1024x768 mode. That may be a significantly limiting factor today. Anyone know monitors?

Just about every flatscreen monitor is designed for 1280x1024 and up, but the more expensive ones can perfectly scale 1024x786 and 800x600(other ones can too, but the blurring is not nice on your eyes), an older second-hand model you'll find in every used products shop, if you are lucky, you'll find a really, really professional one for a few bucks since all the pricing factor on those is screensize, making an Acer or Samsung the same price as a Iiyama or professional IBM screen. All current models still have VGA inputs(overhere they take the DVI out of the cheaper models on purpose, to use DVI as a sales pitch)

Sound. How does sound work on a Mac? Is it on the motherboard? What kind of output does SWC/WC3/WC4 give me in terms of needing a speaker setup?

2.5 jack, stereo sound only, unless you have custom added soundboards...

 

[Dundradal]

Thanks for the comment, folks! It's going to be a long weekend waiting for that keyboard/mouse...

Some questions to be answered, from thinking about this last night.

* What's the deal with hard drives? First: can the Macintosh WCs be run off the hard drive... and if so, what is my path to add a second drive to this machine? Macs of this era used SCSI drives, right? What kind can I put in it, and how?

They are SCSI drives. This site is a good place to start exploring that Mac.

I don't think you can run them off the hard drive.

* Can a Macintosh from 1997 read CDs burned today? I will want to transfer the Super Wing Commander and Wing Commander IV demos over along with various erratta (I'll make a list of everything when I actually do it, for future reference.)

It should as long as it uses the most basic data CD format.

* Could a 166 mhz computer be too fast for Super Wing Commander? I'm hearing that G4s and possibly G3s needed to be slowed down for the game. Not sure if that will be a problem for this slightly older model.

The 604e processor might be. I don't think you can slow that one down, but I might be wrong. There could be an extension out there for OS 9.1 that actually allows you to.

* Will the OLD Origin games work on this computer? I'm not /that/ interested in this since they predate Wing Commander and will be incredibly expensive to find... but I am curious. Origin released Ultima III, Autoduel, Moebius and Ogre for the Mac in the 1980s. There's also a licensed color version of Ultima III from the early 90s, I believe, that I should research.

They should, but they might not like OS 9 and would want System 8 or even possibly 7.

Interestingly enough, the website I linked to above states that the 7300/180 is DOS-compatible. Not sure how that works though.

* If I need an older OS... how do I get it and how do I install it over the newer one?

OSes here and you should be able to just install it right over the old IIRC.

* What kind of cool flight hardware should I start looking for? Will the Mac Wing Commanders support the whole FCS/WCS/RCS setup I use on the PC?

Like I said on IRC, I'll go to my dad's and did out my old TM FCS/WCS/RCS setup. I don't know if I'll be able to find the software for them though.

SWC I think allows you to use all 3 devices. WC3/4 definitely do. The thing is finding TM sticksets to load into the sticks. Hopefully I can find the thrustware floppy which had sticksets on it already.

 

[Oceankhayne]

Why not use Basilisk II or Sheepshaver if you have a 32 bit win os (works best on 2000&xp but I have successfully ran SWC on win 7 32)? There are problems with the cd and appletalk emulation if you have a 64 bit win os. It also works on osx admittedly with a few problems in 64 bit mode. You can get system 7.5.3 free legally (update-able to 7.5.5). There's even a linux build. E-maculation's website has info on the setup process, links to the os and the binaries themselves.

 

[Worf]

* What's the deal with hard drives? First: can the Macintosh WCs be run off the hard drive... and if so, what is my path to add a second drive to this machine? Macs of this era used SCSI drives, right? What kind can I put in it, and how?

On the back there should be a SCSI port, to which you can hook up a plain old SCSI (none of the ultra/wide stuff - as SCSI has sorta turned into the high end, this is going to be VERY difficult to achieve. I don't think Macs have much in the way of internal expansion, so an external drive would be a best option.

* Can a Macintosh from 1997 read CDs burned today? I will want to transfer the Super Wing Commander and Wing Commander IV demos over along with various erratta (I'll make a list of everything when I actually do it, for future reference.)

Yes. There are three formats for CDs - ISO9660, Romeo and Joliet. MacOS is able to read at a minimum ISO9660 (it's the most compatible format, but it leaves you at 8.3). Romeo and Joliet are extensions by Microsoft to support long filenames and other features - I'm not sure of MacOS supports this. But any CD burner is able to burn a plain-jane ISO9660 disc.

But why would you do it? This Mac should have Ethernet capability, so hook it up to your network. You'll need an AAUI adapter to convert it to standard 10Base-T, at which point you can just FTP it over or use a web browser.

* Sound. How does sound work on a Mac? Is it on the motherboard? What kind of output does SWC/WC3/WC4 give me in terms of needing a speaker setup?

It's built in. At the very least, it should have an internal speaker that gives you basic sounds, but there should also be a linelevel or headphone jack on the back. Just plug your speakers into it and you're done. The Sound control panel should help.

* Will the OLD Origin games work on this computer? I'm not /that/ interested in this since they predate Wing Commander and will be incredibly expensive to find... but I am curious. Origin released Ultima III, Autoduel, Moebius and Ogre for the Mac in the 1980s. There's also a licensed color version of Ultima III from the early 90s, I believe, that I should research.

They should. MacOS Classic has a 68k emulator in it that runs quite often (a stunning amount of MacOS code was still in 68k). The typical reasons why they won't work is if they called private APIs (Apple only supports documented APIs, and many developers tried getting around them, resulting in things breaking on an OS update). But well-programmed apps and games work pretty seamlessly.

 

[Darkmage]

mac os 8.1-9.x should work fine, you might want to try running at 1024x768 if you need to make the game run slower as it does help slow the performance down. If you still have performance issues I'd suggest getting an emulator. I've only tried to run super wing commander in Mac OS 8.1 before. Haven't really tried OS9, I did put the disk in a school PC once in 2002 and it ran ridiculously fast on the hardware there.

 

[wcnut]

Having grown up with a mac this is very exciting to me. I still have my old beige G3 working although right now its unpluged and not setup. For joysticks I highly recommend the Gravis Mousestick II if you can get you hands on it still. Mine still works after 10 years! There is software that can create and mount cd images on OS9 if you really want to run it off the HD, but computers of that day don't really have a lot of disk space. Aside from that, thoes games were all really meant to be run off the CD.

TO save your suspense System Shock does have WingO I always preferred the mac version as the music sounds phenomenal with the old quicktime synth.

SWC does run on fine onOS9 at least it did for me.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Howdy folks! Thanks for the replies and the help! The countdown to the arrival of the keyboard/mouse and the first attempt to run Super Wing Commander continues! (Here's my tracking number, if anyone else wants to follow them on their epic journey from some guy selling used computer parts in Florida: 1Z3T35T00396963939)

Why not use Basilisk II or Sheepshaver if you have a 32 bit win os (works best on 2000&xp but I have successfully ran SWC on win 7 32)? There are problems with the cd and appletalk emulation if you have a 64 bit win os. It also works on osx admittedly with a few problems in 64 bit mode. You can get system 7.5.3 free legally (update-able to 7.5.5). There's even a linux build. E-maculation's website has info on the setup process, links to the os and the binaries themselves.

That's good advice, but honestly half the fun of this is playing with the old hardware. There's something very appealing about the whole process--learning how the old systems worked, finding the parts, making it all shine again... just dusting the case off and hearing it power up again was a little exciting. I suppose it's similar in a way to why people restore old cars or aircraft instead of just buying newer, faster ones. (There's an amazing computer junk shop about an hour and a half from here that Joe Garrity discovered... I'm kind of hoping I'll get an excuse to go down there and dig around for this project. )

On the back there should be a SCSI port, to which you can hook up a plain old SCSI (none of the ultra/wide stuff - as SCSI has sorta turned into the high end, this is going to be VERY difficult to achieve. I don't think Macs have much in the way of internal expansion, so an external drive would be a best option.

It sounds like I can't rip the games to the hard drive and expect them to run like on the PC... so I guess I don't really need any more hard drive space. The existing 2 gig drive should be more than enough to install these four games and a few demos.

TO save your suspense System Shock does have WingO I always preferred the mac version as the music sounds phenomenal with the old quicktime synth.

Thanks! I guess that was $20 well spent. Especially if the description was accurate and it really is a mint sealed copy... (I've had shockingly good luck with such things using Amazon's third party sellers in the past, so fingers crossed.)

* Here's a fun thing: a shareware version of Ultima III for both old Macs and OSX: http://www.lairware.com/ultima3/ Apparently they licensed the rights to do the port from Origin back in the day, when such things were possible, and have maintained it all this time.

* Another goal! While looking through Usenet posts I discovered that there is a second version of the Wing Commander IV Mac demo--the smaller web version (which we host) and a larger version with some movies that was included on CD covers (Inside Mac Games, specifically.) So that larger demo is something to search for now.

* I read through all the documentation and sifted through some 1996 posts on the subject and it sounds like Wing Commander IV has Pro-Logic surround sound... which doesn't require any special hardware on the Mac itself, just the existing stereo output. I'll leave thoughts of a multi-speaker system alone for now, with the goal of eventually integrating it into the same setup as my retro PC.

 

[Worf]

It sounds like I can't rip the games to the hard drive and expect them to run like on the PC... so I guess I don't really need any more hard drive space. The existing 2 gig drive should be more than enough to install these four games and a few demos.

Well, you can't "rip" the games the traditional way, but you *may* be able to copy the contents of the CD directly to a folder on the hard disk. (In fact, I think if you drag the CD to the hard drive, it copies the contents of the CD to the hard drive).

It's worth a shot. However, it can fail if all the multimedia is arranged specially on the CD (e.g., sometimes background music is a regular CD audio track). At worst, it'll complain about not being able to eject a CD, or various things break. At best, it works perfectly. Mac apps either are designed to be copied by dragging their files around, or have an installer.

 

[ELTEE]

This thread is awesome. Before I discovered DosBox from the CIC in 2006 I would go through an annual ritual to play my old games. During the holidays, when visiting my parents, I would trek down to the basement and unpack my old Zeos 486 (with math co-processor!) dust her off, set her up, and go to town. I kept the old thrustmaster and related gaming paraphernalia in close proximity for easy reach, right next to my stash of ever present and necessary boot disks (and CMOS batteries - ugh, hate changing these.)

Definitely thinking I may need to repeat the ritual, even though it's technically unnecessary now. Then again, that 69 camaro my neighbor complains about being too smelly and too noisy is absolutely unnecessary - strange, then, that it's more fun!

 

[Dundradal]

Well, you can't "rip" the games the traditional way, but you *may* be able to copy the contents of the CD directly to a folder on the hard disk. (In fact, I think if you drag the CD to the hard drive, it copies the contents of the CD to the hard drive).

Yes, drag and dropping the contents of the CD to the HDD will copy the entire CD.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I'm still at work right now, and the waiting for the input devices is intense! I can't wait to see if I can go right in and start Super Wing Commander...

One tiny addition to the story from last night: you can't see it in the picture, but the Macintosh had a noticeable yellow splotch on its top (right under SWC.) I assumed it was just old plastic that was yellowing and I was looking into either replacing the case with a fresh looking one or trying to whip up a batch of retrobright (http://retr0bright.wikispaces.com/)

But last night I decided to give her a simple polish in preparation for the delivery today and it rubbed right off. I... probably don't want to know what it was.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Good morning!

I bet you were expecting this post a lot sooner. The mouse and keyboard did indeed arrive yesterday afternoon... but it turned out that I had to take my brother to the airport after work. Then, since I was in the area anyway I decided to go to the LEGO store... and have dinner... and go to a movie. Let me just say, if you see just one movie about a crippled dolphin this year... then Dolphin Tale is an option.

In an odd coincidence, the LEGO store was giving away free LEGO apples with your purchase. They didn't say /why/, but it may be some sort of Steve Jobs tribute? Either way, free apple:

So I FINALLY made it home at 10:30 PM, which is late for a work night, and I found... the box with the keyboard and mouse! The eBay seller had coated the thing in layer upon layer of packing tape, so I had to bust out that pocket knife all the CIC staff have the same one of. The keyboard and mouse seem unused--still their natural gray color, no dirt or loose parts.

One interesting lesson: you plug the keyboard into the mouse and then the mouse into the motherboard. Who knew? It reminded me a lot of the similar chain process the 3DO uses for second controllers... and it would not be the last time something would remind me of the 3DO that night! I don't think the Mac keyboard is quite as durable (or clicky) my PC's IBM Model M, but it's pretty nice as keyboards go. The power button being on the keyboard itself seemed like a nice change.

And so I was able to boot up the Mac the whole way for the first time!

I started off doing a little archaeology. As best I can tell, the last time she was used was eleven years ago. Apparently at one point she had an array of school-related applications, but they seem to have mostly been wiped before I bought it. Trying to open a copy of Photoshop gave me a warning that a volume named "Big Bertha" was unavailable.

And with that, it was time to try Super Wing Commander! The disc read correctly, I opened it up and ran the installer:

(Yes, the background of the picture features mardi gras beads, cups from Burger King's Star Trek 11 promotion and boxes of comic books stacked up. I... am a hoarder.)

After a short install process, Super Wing Commander was in my Finder and I was ready to go!

Or was I?

I was not. Insufficient memory to run Super Wing Commander? ARGH! I can slash and burn a config.sys/autoexec.bat like the best of them, but I was absolutely lost when it came to memory on a Mac. And wasn't this game several years older than the computer? I repeat: argh! My iPad gave me a brief tutorial on how System 9 eats up your memory loading 'control panels' and 'extensions' at startup. I checked to see what the Mac was loading and found a giant mess of them. Super Wing Commander's help file said you should have three running when you do the game and this Mac had dozens and dozens. I killed everything that didn't seem essential and started back up. Clicked on the Super Wing Commander icon and...

Insufficient memory!

At this point it was closing in on midnight and I had to leave for work at 7 AM. With a heavy heart I decided that I would have to just give up for now.

But of course I couldn't. I slept fitfully, waking up every twenty minutes or so with some new search term to plug into the 'Pad. The knowledge base for pre-OSX Macs out there is TINY, and NOTHING worked. I must have woken up, searched for something and then plugged the Mac back in to test it a dozen times over night. Nothing, nothing, nothing.

Around 4:30 I woke up for good, which is normal for me. I get my good Wing Commandering done then.

As I struggled to consciousness, I had a thought.

I'm not a technical guy, but what occured to me was this: what if the problem isn't the Mac but instead Super Wing Commander? 32 megs is a LOT more RAM than Super Wing Commander probably expects... maybe it's like Privateer and doesn't understand that it's available. For whatever reason, I went into Super Wing Commander's memory settings and told it that it would like to eat 8 megs instead of 4.

BAM!

All was not perfect, however. Per an earlier thought in this thread, I was running at 1024x768xthousands of colors to try and keep the game slow... which had some unfortunate consequences. The QuickTime movies (spec-tacular!) played correctly in the center of the screen... but the game itself shower up in the upper left. And when I went to talk to Shotglass... he was bright green! AAAAAHHH!

Switching the monitor settings to 640x480 centered everything correctly and then switching back to 256 colors (which the game actually warned me to do as I started up) fixed the characters' unfortunate complexions. So far, so good... but my litmus test was to finish one mission. And taking off in my Hornet confirmed my worst fears: Super Wing Commander was TOO FAST.

Was there anything I could do? I fiddled with the options menu: set graphics to the highest options, sound on everywhere and so on. No effect. Then I decided to click the "QuickDraw (SAFE)" option... which worked! Super Wing Commander was now the correct speed!

I was able to finish the first mission with ease, although flying with a keyboard after all these years is a little awkward.

Some quick reflections: the controls are a VAST improvement over Super Wing Commander 3DO. It's like playing Wing Commander I again, which is wonderful. Just a great smooth experience and I would encourage anyone to do this for that reason. The speech didn't seem as bad, either--the long pauses between lines from the 3DO version were gone. The most unfortunate thing, though, is that SWC emulates some of the 3DOs compromises instead of switching back to how things worked on the PC. This means that communications are still a pain--you pause the game and do them from the comm menu. It also lacks many of the views available on the PC one--no seeing what the left and right of your cockpit, for instance. Too bad!

But still AMAZING to be playing essentially a new Wing Commander experience in 2011.

It was about 5 AM at this point and I knew I had this post DOWN. But: I wasn't going to be able to concentrate at work if I didn't test the other two games. I switched out the SWC disc for WC3, ran through the installer and... ran into the same memory problem! But armed with the nonsense solution that I lucked into, I had the game running immediately. One mission in the Orsini System done!

... and then WC4! I figured this would be the easiest, since it came out only a few months before this computer. And I was... right! Installed and executed with no problem. Fought Maniac, shot down some Razors:

BONUS-check out this weird WC4 logo from the WC4 installer!

What a great night/morning! Now I'm at work and it's 10 AM and I'm... very, very tired. But I'm going to use this time to make a CD of the WC demos so I can test those out when I get home. And after I have them working this afternoon it will be time for a well-deserved nap.

Long term plans:

- Get a joystick! And a throttle and rudder.
- System Shock is in the mail. How will it fare with this setup?
- Find the longer Wing Commander IV demo from Inside Mac Games.
- Better speakers, ideally a Pro Logic setup that will support Wing Commander IV's videos.
- Build that LEGO VW Microbus.

 

[ELTEE]

First of all, awesome shots - it is forcing me to reconsider searching for and obtaining Super Wing Commander!

Second of all, I think your Mac has a new official name - "Big Bertha."

Lastly, I'm a huge Lego loser and auto enthusiast, and I've never seen the microbus model - it's like taking too passions and combining them. Add THAT to my plans for the weekend now...