Larkinflight Hates Arena

Zelvik

Rear Admiral
Oh...kay...

So in the end. Do you think that Arena was good for the Wing Commander IP, was it bad? Did it get us closer to a full blown release (console, multiplatform), was it a reminder for those at EA that they held an interesting IP, or did it disencourage them from touching the subject in the given future? Or was Arena just too small to realy affect anything of that kind?

It certainly got us the star soldier manual, that contributed quite a bit of nice detail to the WC canon.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
So in the end. Do you think that Arena was good for the Wing Commander IP, was it bad? Did it get us closer to a full blown release (console, multiplatform), was it a reminder for those at EA that they held an interesting IP, or did it disencourage them from touching the subject in the given future? Or was Arena just too small to realy affect anything of that kind?


First and foremost, yes it was a great, great thing--because if it meant nothing else in the world then it was still a new Wing Commander game that we got to play. That's a rare and special thing and I can't come up with a way to feel bad about it. Think about the last ten years of Wing Commander--you have the least popular novel, two handheld ports and then Arena. Even for someone who doesn't care about the gameplay, it was a magnificent little refresh of the continuity--you mentioned Star*Soldier, but equally interesting was seeing the universe visited by a different set of artists. You have to put a lot of effort into not being happy not to appreciate some aspect of it... look at LarkInFlight--coming up with some elaborate scenario where the only thing that he'll enjoy is the kind of game we haven't seen in fifteen years.

As for EA... well, who the hell knows?

It is true that we missed one hell of an opportunity. Sean Penney's group at EA Burnaby was ready to follow up Arena with a full blown Wing Commander--they even had a 'full range of motion' multiplayer demo working by the night Arena launched. EA passed when Arena didn't sell as predicted... but that opportunity only existed *because of* Arena; the project simply wouldn't have existed in the first place without WCA. Nothing ventured...

I do not know that response to Arena killed any bigger projects. I have been involved in two Wing Commander games that I can talk about since Arena shipped (not counting the project mentioned above)... so EA is still willing to fund pitches using the IP. The first was an AAA budget Privateer Online restart (at EA Mythic) and the second was a low-budget Privateer 'browser based trading game' that would have been done through a contractor with Wing Commander experience.

Another takeaway from that last project is that no one is listening to what all these Kotaku jerks rage about. I know they think their snarky repetetive 'I want a REAL Wing Commander' bullshit is making some difference... but it isn't: EA is still interested in putting the Wing Commander IP in some other form (and let me tell you, if you hated Arena you would have been blind with rage about the browser game). The details of a bad review matter only to developers who are then allowed to build a second game. No one, anywhere will ever read the Wing Commander Arena Post Mortem because the producer now runs an EA studio in Korea and the developers themselves were all work-for-hire. The most any executive will ever look at with regards to Arena is the money it made and its metacritic score.

(I would say that it was a bad thing in so far as it completely destroyed my faith in humanity outside these walls and turned me into an even nastier curmudgeon. If you're a "professional" game reviewer that used your review of an incredibly fun $10 arcade game to rage against the machine then I just plain hate you. If you're a Wing Commander "fan" who did the same thing or who came up with an elaborate conspiracy about how EA was using the IP to make money off of the literally dozens of people who would buy anything with Wing Commander in the title then... I'm no fan of yours.)


Personally, I hope it goes multi-platform, cause I don't have a 360, and I need Wing Commander games!

I wouldn't worry about it... the PS3 development process and user base has caught up to the Xbox in the past three years. We will see any 'big budget' Wing Commander on both platforms. (There was even some talk of doing Arena on PSN before the release--Star*Soldier was set up so that only one set of pages is Xbox-specific.)
 

Bob McDob

Better Health Through Less Flavor
Another takeaway from that last project is that no one is listening to what all these Kotaku jerks rage about. I know they think their snarky repetetive 'I want a REAL Wing Commander' bullshit is making some difference... but it isn't: EA is still interested in putting the Wing Commander IP in some other form

If what they say doesn't matter, then how can they possibly be so important?

http://www.crius.net/zone/showpost.php?p=388418&postcount=4
The sad fact is that a half hour of Kotaku or Destructoid or the other one campaigning in favor of relaunching the franchise would do more than I have in ten years here.

This is where I'm honestly confused. I was dubious from the start of the idea that these sites are anywhere near as important as they pretend to be, but if EA isn't really interested in what they have to say, then how would listening to what they have to say make any difference? Is this a case of not caring unless they hear what they want to hear? Then what's the worth of following them in the first place? Or is this a case where it doesn't make sense, it's not supposed to, and it's no use trying to figure it out?
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
If what they say doesn't matter, then how can they possibly be so important?

For two reasons:

- Their ratings are a huge factor in the metacritic scores which *are* important. EA has actually based a number of campaigns on these scores recently, pouring money into Dead Space, Command and Conquer and Mirror's Edge based on the idea that when the critical scores for the initial titles are good even when sales aren't then they can make money on sequels (that strategy hasn't *worked* yet, but they're very dedicated to it...).

- Because they inform the buying decisions (and choose the opinions of) of the millions of "gamers" who are needed to make a game profitable when we don't. Some jerk on Kotaku posting how awful Arena is because it doesn't have Mark Hamill in it spawns a hundred thousand machines who will repeat that line everywhere on the internet.
 

LarkInFlight

Rear Admiral
LarkInFlight Hates Arena

Well.. I only said that I really don't like it.
Defending this weak game stops you from nothing Bandit: insults, book-long posts, weird arguments.

You totally forgot there was one game which didn't have big budget, was very playable, deep and was complex. I mean the Standoff (I really love it).

It has Wing Commander style, type of play (who plays it out of cockpit view?) and feel that you are actually play WC. I didn't find any of these in Arena. I wanted Arena to be a little bit more like Standoff.

I know that the game was based on Prophecy engine, but it was also non profit project!

You see, I didn't expect that the next WC would be expensive, great gfx, perfect music very complicated game. I expected it only to be more like previous Wing Commanders.

As you mentioned some WC were a little bit simplified (without story - Academy, and story only in manuals - Armada), but the basic game, when you leave your carrier is still the same - cockpit view, 3D perspective. Not like asteroids!

look at LarkInFlight--coming up with some elaborate scenario where the only thing that he'll enjoy is the kind of game we haven't seen in fifteen years.

I've never said that. The only thing I expected was not to make simple shooter even more simple! What will be next? Wing Commander asteroids in 2D? Please.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Well.. I only said that I really don't like it.
Defending this weak game stops you from nothing Bandit: insults, book-long posts, weird arguments.

Arguing?! At a message board?! Well, I never! *faints dead away*

You totally forgot there was one game which didn't have big budget, was very playable, deep and was complex. I mean the Standoff (I really love it).

Err, no, Standoff is a mod built on a game that cost millions of dollars in actual development money... and then it cost eight years of hard work donated by fans (something donated still has value) to get to what you played.

It was also meant as a tribute to Wing Commander; I'm reasonably certain the folks behind the project would be entirely disgusted that you're claiming it as some excuse not to buy another new Wing Commander game.

As you mentioned some WC were a little bit simplified (without story - Academy, and story only in manuals - Armada), but the basic game, when you leave your carrier is still the same - cockpit view, 3D perspective. Not like asteroids!

The next time you want to knock Electronic Arts for putting out another Need for Speed or Madden, remember your wholehearted desire that *everything always be exactly the same*.

Here are some shockers that are sure to cripple your delicate sensibilities: I liked Wing Commander when it was a *card game*! I liked it when it was a *novel*! I liked it when it was a TV show and, sort of, a movie! I liked it when it was a screensaver and an a funny in-joke in Ultima and System Shock and when it was an unpublished script that I Indiana Jones'd up. Maybe you only like Wing Commander when it has a first person shooter view you can interact with... but if that's the case you're probably in the wrong place.

I've never said that. The only thing I expected was not to make simple shooter even more simple! What will be next? Wing Commander asteroids in 2D? Please.

There's actually a fun parody of asteroids *in* Wing Commander Arena ('meteor' mode)... in fact, it's one of the few things you can do in the demo. I'm thinking maybe you *HAVEN'T EVEN TRIED THE GAME*?
 

Dundradal

Frog Blast the Vent Core!
LarkInFlight said:
I wanted Arena to be a little bit more like Standoff.

Huh? It's a game that sets out to not be that though. I don't quite understand the criticism of Arena not being "WC3!" "WCP!" "Standoff!" Arena sets out to do exactly what it intended. It's a fun little game that you can link up with 16 of your friends and defend your battlecruisers, fight in the bearpit or just straight melee.

Arena never set out to be the "next" wing commander game. Standoff was a tribute to WC. As someone who worked on Standoff it pains me to see you associating the two in this manner.

Give the game a try and be a wing commander FAN.
 

LarkInFlight

Rear Admiral
I'm terribly sorry. Now I see there is no room for people who don't like WC Arena and say it out laud on this forum. All I should say is: I LOVE WING COMMANDER ARENA, I LOVE WING COMMANDER ARENA, repeat after me.

I'm reasonably certain the folks behind the project would be entirely disgusted that you're claiming it as some excuse not to buy another new Wing Commander game.
I will say it again: I will not buy a game which is weak just because it's called Wing Commander! I'm not sure why so few people are not stubborn enough to say it out loud. It's probably because how you treat you antagonists. You offend them instead of trying to get to them.

There's actually a fun parody of asteroids *in* Wing Commander Arena ('meteor' mode)... in fact, it's one of the few things you can do in the demo. I'm thinking maybe you *HAVEN'T EVEN TRIED THE GAME*?
I was thinking about 2D view from above,just like in first asteroids game, you know.. You still try to discredit me, it's just the way you like it. How pathetic. Fun parody of WC - that's Arena in my eyes.

Arena never set out to be the "next" wing commander game

So why is it called Wing Commander in the first place?

Give the game a try and be a wing commander FAN.

I tried, believe me. But I cannot accept lack of cockpits, lack of Wing Commander style, simplified everything(!) it changed everything I loved.

I am a Wing Commander fan, nothing changes that. It seems that I will be a fan without wcnews.com.

I always thought anyone could express his/hers feelings about a game on a forum but I guess I was wrong. Bye.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
I will say it again: I will not buy a game which is weak just because it's called Wing Commander! I'm not sure why so few people are not stubborn enough to say it out loud. It's probably because how you treat you antagonists. You offend them instead of trying to get to them.

Oh, come off it--this is the weakest part. Do you know why no one is 'speaking up' to agree with you? It's because they don't. You need someone to agree with you so you've convinced yourself that there's some conspiracy that keeps anyone else from speaking their *real* opinions? There's no silent group of supporters out there--you're just being a dick.

Furthermore, YOU are being treated as an antagonist because you showed up to ANTAGONIZE Tigers Claw's thread about how excited he was that Arena was available in Greece. It's calling a spade a spade.

I was thinking about 2D view from above,just like in first asteroids game, you know.. You still try to discredit me, it's just the way you like it. How pathetic. Fun parody of WC - that's Arena in my eyes.

I... don't think you know what a parody is?

IT IS FUN, THOUGH! *swish*

So why is it called Wing Commander in the first place?

Because it is set in the *Wing Commander* universe. Terrans, Kilrathi, Dralthi, Rapiers, etc. Now there's an interesting second half to this, though, that you're intentionally ignoring. Why is it called Wing Commander *Arena*? To fit the pattern of variant spinoffs started with Wing Commander ACADEMY and Wing Commander ARMADA. Just the fact that they bothered to do that to continue a pattern that stopped thirteen years ago is pretty neat.

I tried, believe me. But I cannot accept lack of cockpits, lack of Wing Commander style, simplified everything(!) it changed everything I loved.

Ah, like Wing Commander IV? :)

In all seriousness, I don't see Arena as especially simplified. I would argue that success in any of the game modes (even Meteor) requires a lot of strategy, moreso than you need in the 'main line' games. WC3 is usually a matter of taking the best ship and shooting everything... Arena requires a lot of coordination in multiplayer and a lot of 'maintenance' (this is a bad word for it) in single player modes like Bearpit or Meteor where the goal is to keep a streak going with one fighter.

I am a Wing Commander fan, nothing changes that. It seems that I will be a fan without wcnews.com.

I always thought anyone could express his/hers feelings about a game on a forum but I guess I was wrong. Bye.

What part of any message ever posted to these forums made you think it was acceptable to troll someone else's thread?
 

Dundradal

Frog Blast the Vent Core!
I tried, believe me. But I cannot accept lack of cockpits, lack of Wing Commander style, simplified everything(!) it changed everything I loved.

I am a Wing Commander fan, nothing changes that. It seems that I will be a fan without wcnews.com.

I always thought anyone could express his/hers feelings about a game on a forum but I guess I was wrong. Bye.

It's an arcade game though. It's like you didn't read the box when you bought it then get pissed when it's honey bunches of oats instead of Captain Crunch. Arena never tried to be that. The problem is you aren't expressing a criticism that makes sense. You are saying that it's different from all the other WC games and because of that it is bad. The game never intended to be that. That's like criticizing your little girl at 16 because she's not a boy.

Easy with the woooooest me. There is no need to leave. It's merely people are pointing out your criticism isn't valid.

You want to know what I don't like about Arena?

Maps. I wish it had a few more to shake things up for team and ffa deathmatch.
I wish the MP did a better job of keeping games together after they ended.
I wish the Bearpit was more enjoyable. It's not really super fun.
I don't like that people bash it for not being a mutli-million dollar WC release. It's a XBLA game. Treat it and criticize it as such. Don't get angry because it's not a 8 disc FMV epic. It was never trying to be.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Maps. I wish it had a few more to shake things up for team and ffa deathmatch.

I agree completely. There was actually another game mode where you captured space stations that could spawn more fighters and they cut it at the last minute to focus on the others. I rue that choice.

I wish the MP did a better job of keeping games together after they ended.

Unquestionably the game's #1 bug.


I wish the Bearpit was more enjoyable. It's not really super fun.

I enjoy the Bearpit... I thought the idea was idiotic, but I like the game mode itself in practice.

if I had a magic wand and could make onereasonable change it would be to add bots in all the modes so you don't need friends.

If I could make one huge change it would be to restore the single player story that was planned for the game...
 

Dundradal

Frog Blast the Vent Core!
I agree completely. There was actually another game mode where you captured space stations that could spawn more fighters and they cut it at the last minute to focus on the others. I rue that choice.

Yeah that would have been nice to shake things up.



Unquestionably the game's #1 bug.

And the one we spent the most discussing after the game's release.




I enjoy the Bearpit... I thought the idea was idiotic, but I like the game mode itself in practice.

if I had a magic wand and could make onereasonable change it would be to add bots in all the modes so you don't need friends.

If I could make one huge change it would be to restore the single player story that was planned for the game...


Yeah it's ok to hang out in...but the concept of the Bearpit doesn't work well. There is no goal to work towards.

The addition of bots would certainly aid replayability in some game types. Battlecruiser battles would be fantastic with the addition of a few more fighters. Those games really weren't fun unless you had at least 8-10 players involved.


And LarkinFlight I certainly hope you don't abandon the CIC because someone disagreed with you. It's rather silly. Hopefully you realize what we were trying to tell you....
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Yeah that would have been nice to shake things up.

I guess the thought was that it was too much like the satellite mode... which ended up being the least-played mode in the end, anyway.

We came up with some awesome pitches for scenarios early on... co-op capship attack, marine landing (you protect troopships and blow up targets on the ground)... and all sorts of historical things 'redone' in Arena style (famous missions from the games and books).

Yeah it's ok to hang out in...but the concept of the Bearpit doesn't work well. There is no goal to work towards.

I haven't looked at the scoreboard forever, but doesn't it measure all-time streaks? I think that was the general goal (like a bunch of earlier Xbox games, Arena puts wayyyyy more focus on global leaderboards than people ended up actually caring about).

And LarkinFlight I certainly hope you don't abandon the CIC because someone disagreed with you. It's rather silly. Hopefully you realize what we were trying to tell you....

He's certainly welcome to continue posting--but I am bothered that he has absolutely no understanding that it was wrong to troll TCSTigersClaws' thread in the first place.
 

Dundradal

Frog Blast the Vent Core!
I guess the thought was that it was too much like the satellite mode... which ended up being the least-played mode in the end, anyway.

We came up with some awesome pitches for scenarios early on... co-op capship attack, marine landing (you protect troopships and blow up targets on the ground)... and all sorts of historical things 'redone' in Arena style (famous missions from the games and books).

The reason I hate satellite mode isn't the game itself but the fact you can't "slide" into the docking ports on the satellites. Many a game were decided because a player's ship got stuck on some artifact on the satellite and weren't able to capture it as a result.


Those would have been fun missions to play out. It's too bad they weren't developed.



I haven't looked at the scoreboard forever, but doesn't it measure all-time streaks? I think that was the general goal (like a bunch of earlier Xbox games, Arena puts wayyyyy more focus on global leaderboards than people ended up actually caring about).

I think it does...in relation to time in the Bearpit and streaks achieved there.
 

ChrisReid

Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
I wish the MP did a better job of keeping games together after they ended.

I wish we would have had the XBox Live Party system in 2007. Several times even we hit the A button too quick and broke off from the post-game chat and had to regroup. Microsoft broadly fixed that problem for us by creating persistent group comms that anyone in a match could theoretically join and group up into. Not perfect, but quite a convenient fix for any games we pull together now.
 
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