Larkinflight Hates Arena

LarkInFlight

Rear Admiral
I recently tried to play Arena again. I downloaded and stared it but.. :/
The game has very little to do with previous Wing Commanders. I treat it as very simple arcade game and I'm not even going to buy the full version. If they want to make another Wing Commander, they should do it right. I'm not going to buy a game just because it has famous predecessors..
 

ChrisReid

Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
I recently tried to play Arena again. I downloaded and stared it but.. :/
The game has very little to do with previous Wing Commanders. I treat it as very simple arcade game and I'm not even going to buy the full version. If they want to make another Wing Commander, they should do it right. I'm not going to buy a game just because it has famous predecessors..

Did you miss the 50 other threads on this? Unfortunately, the demo is a joke - literally. It's an Asteroids homage, and since XBLA demos were only single player when Arena was released, that's what made the cut.

The meat of the game are all the crazy multiplayer modes. Confed vs Kilrathi, huge battlecruiser defense, radar station capturing, etc. Like 99% of all Arcade games, there's not a lot of people just hanging out waiting to play three years later, but the game is tons of fun.
 

LarkInFlight

Rear Admiral
Did you miss the 50 other threads on this? Unfortunately, the demo is a joke - literally. It's an Asteroids homage, and since XBLA demos were only single player when Arena was released, that's what made the cut.

The meat of the game are all the crazy multiplayer modes. Confed vs Kilrathi, huge battlecruiser defense, radar station capturing, etc. Like 99% of all Arcade games, there's not a lot of people just hanging out waiting to play three years later, but the game is tons of fun.

Hmm.. how can I put this..?

It's still this (1) instead of that (2) :p
 

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Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Hmm.. how can I put this..?

I bet you think you're LeHah's clever friend.

(Seriously, though, what's the argument here--that an Xbox Live Arcade game is an... arcade game? The shock! Get out the pitchforks!)

(Also, the first screenshot is from Racing Destruction Set, a groundbreaking, genre-building beloved game... and the second one is from this year's Need for Speed sausage pressing. I don't think you're making the point you want.)
 

ChrisReid

Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
(Also, the first screenshot is from Racing Destruction Set, a groundbreaking, genre-building beloved game... and the second one is from this year's Need for Speed sausage pressing. I don't think you're making the point you want.)

Well, if the point is that a one-second gloss comparison between two different types of things can lead someone to unfounded conclusions, I think he nailed it.
 

LarkInFlight

Rear Admiral
Seriously, though, what's the argument here--that an Xbox Live Arcade game is an... arcade game? The shock! Get out the pitchforks!)

(Also, the first screenshot is from Racing Destruction Set, a groundbreaking, genre-building beloved game... and the second one is from this year's Need for Speed sausage pressing. I don't think you're making the point you want.)

Yea, yea, the point is.. Wing Commander used to set standards in point of computer gfx, music, playability and complexity. And now, the last 'part' is only simple arcade shooter. Even die hard fans (I consider myself one) don't want to buy this crap.

It's very sad.

But it's good that someone likes it.. I speak only for myself, but I think that there are more fans like me, disappointed in this situation :(
 

NinjaLA

Alex Von T.
you see, sir, it may not be a holiday in Poland, but here it is thanksgiving.. just give thanks that we got some wing commander attention in 2007, even if it wasn't what you are hoping and stop raining on our European release parade.

Dude, seriously. Not cool.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
It's very sad.

So, to be absolutely clear: you actually want us to believe that you went in to Wing Commander Arena, a ten dollar, fifty megabyte download for Xbox Live Arcade from the earliest days of that service, expecting that it would somehow be multi-million dollar AAA followup to Wing Commander Prophecy? And you really think that setting up your argument in this way comes off as biting criticism instead of just telling us all that you're a complete and total moron? You think this argument is worth *celebrating*?

Of course Wing Commander Arena is an inexpesive arcade game--it's, literally, an inexpensive arcade game. I mean, you have to connect to an inexpensive arcade game providing service to get it. I want to say I'm sorry you were... tricked?... but I can't really imagine how that would even be possible (or by whom, or for what reason...). Moreover, I think the news staff here did more than their due diligence in letting everyone know exactly what gameplay is in Wing Commander Arena down to the tiniest detail during the release. So.... I'm sorry you're stupid?

That established, here's the hard sell. Stow your cynicism in your locker and let yourself have some fun instead of borrowing a chewed up argument from the dumb part of the internet. Wing Commander Arena is a neat little game, worth a heck of a lot more than you have to pay for it. It's absolutely steeped in Wing Commander lore, from text to visual, to the point that it even bends the gameplay the wrong way design-wise to accomodate our universe. It's also a heck of a good time. One of my favorite Wing Commander memories (and I have a hell of a lot) is playing sixteen player capship battles in Arena with all my real wingnut friends as my wingmen. It's *that* good. It's such a brilliant game mode because it forces you to *live* Wing Commander--you have to use the voice chat to rally your squadron to properly defend your carrier while you're attacking the other... and the visuals! No, it's not Halo 4 but it's absolutely brilliant (and a far higher resolution than any other Wing Commander, if you care about such things!). Dozens of little fighters jettingback and forth while these capships exchange broadsides... it's wonderful. (I could go on for days about all the neat little touches. The Longbows! Thelittle call out on the ship selection screen! DRALTHI! On and on and on... you spend a tiny fraction of the cost of a full game and you get so much from it.)

But no, they didn't spend fifty million dollars on it, it's not good enough for you! Did previous Wing Commander games do absolutely groundbreaking things? Yes, many of them did. I'd make the argument that Arena did (it was built in the era of the 50mb download limit... and it pushed that past the breaking point, with more players than any XBLA game to the point, more impressive graphics, more everything) but I don't have to. If you bought it expecting Wing Commander 7 you're just a doofus or a liar (pray I never find out you're not a doofus, friend--that's the situation you've put yourself in here). Wing Commander has done expensive giant things but it's also done small brilliant things--Armada, Academy, OFX... hell, even the concept of the 'addon disk' was invented by Wing Commander to save money and it lead to some of the most wonderful, inexpensive games ever.

So... sorry you're sad, but... well, you're sad.

My friends may be assholes, but they're not outright stupid.

Disagree.
 

LarkInFlight

Rear Admiral
just give thanks that we got some wing commander attention in 2007

True, but I prefer quality over numbers.

Of course Wing Commander Arena is an inexpensive

I don't care if it was expensive or not. If I'm buying Wing Commander I expect it to be more than just a little arcade game. Wing Commander 1 didn't cost millions and it still looks better than Arena (not the gfx off course but the rest).

I think, they just made a little game and named it "Wing Commander" to earn more.. or they had good intentions but it didn't work out, I don't know.

I had always hoped that the next Wing Commander would be a great come back. After Arena I lost the hope.

I know you took some part in creating the game, you probably did your best.
But still, if you compare the game to other (not with 50 Million budged) available on xbox360, it has nothing new to offer and this move (to make simple space shooter more simple) was in wrong direction.
You can't say that all the Wings were simulations (even I-war was closer to sim) but they always simulated some situations very well. Cockpits, damages, weapons, talking to other people on a ship, etc, it made the games unique. Now it's just a simple shooter. That's ok if you accept it that way.

You can offend me as much as you like, it will not change my opinion (I may change my opinion on you though).

Consider the above ONLY MY PERSONAL OPINION. I'm very happy that some of you really like the game. I've always thought that forums like this were made for expressing opinions of players. All opinions, not just those considered "right". I may have exaggerated with the 'crap' in my previous post, sorry for that.
 

ChrisReid

Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
I don't care if it was expensive or not. If I'm buying Wing Commander I expect it to be more than just a little arcade game.

But Wing Commander Arena IS an Arcade game, but literal definition title. Not all Wing Commander games are epic video-laden masterpieces, nor should they be. Many of my favorite Wing Commander memories are from the multiplayer-centric Wing Commander games, like Wing Commander Armada. Armada has no video, gameplay that's vastly different from most WC games and virtually all of its story presented in the manual, and it's *fantastic*! Since you didn't actually play Arena, I might need to clarify: all of those Armada traits also directly apply to Arena.

I think, they just made a little game and named it "Wing Commander" to earn more.. or they had good intentions but it didn't work out, I don't know.

Yes, you don't know, and you're wrong. We've posted many front page articles on the evolution of Wing Commander Arena, and you can see all of the Dralthi, Centurion, and other WC elements from the very first screenshots, which looked very different than the final game. The game also works exactly as intended, as a flagship title for XBox Live Arcade.

But still, if you compare the game to other (not with 50 Million budged) available on xbox360, it has nothing new to offer

You're wrong. Wing Commander Arena was a ground breaking title for the platform. Arena isn't comparable to XBox 360 games - it's for XBox Live Arcade with vastly different capabilities and limitations. Arena did tons and tons of stuff that no other game did before it. It was the first game on the platform to offer 16 player multiplayer, and it did it with twice as many game modes, playable ships and depth than other comparable games for the system (Battlestar Galactica, Star Trek DAC, etc).

Consider the above ONLY MY PERSONAL OPINION. I'm very happy that some of you really like the game. I've always thought that forums like this were made for expressing opinions of players. All opinions, not just those considered "right". I may have exaggerated with the 'crap' in my previous post, sorry for that.

No, the internet is not some candy land where you can spray your awful opinions around with impunity. Someone posted about how excited they were to be able to play Wing Commander Arena, and other fans joined him in celebration, and then you had to jump into the middle of our conversation and start pooping on the party. Who the hell does that? How rude.

Can you imagine doing this in a video game store? You run across several people who are jumping up and down about how excited they are that they found the game they'd been searching for for years. And then you butt in to the middle of the group and tell them that although you didn't even play the game, you think it's crap, so there! You're not the victim here.
 

LarkInFlight

Rear Admiral

If I'm rude just because I expressed my feelings about a game than how would you call that?:

https://www.wcnews.com/articles/dcon2002/page4.shtml

Some people here are not only Wing Commander fans.
In my opinion I-war is equally good as WC and more realistic, Freespace was a very good game (better than arena for sure). I finished all the games you destroyed back then. Only 1 wasn't very playable (Star Crusader).

I know you blame some of those titles for death of space shooter genre but some of them were really good. I just shrugged when I saw that. I didn't call anyone rude because of it.
 
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Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
If I'm rude just because I expressed my feelings about a game than how would you call that?:

Err, the fact that that's stupid is the whole joke? (Which had nothing to do with Chris, Joe Garrity came up with it).

I think you're missing, surprise, surprise, the context--in 2004 we were beset by jackasses coming here and wanting to fight about their favorite ripoff game. It was a funny response (with a double message, of course--the fact that we owned and played all those games in the first place).

All of that said, I don't think anyone here would go post that kind of thing to an iWar message board or a Star Crusader message board... because that would be genuinely obnoxious.
 

ChrisReid

Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
And that's the whole point. Not everybody likes Arena. Many people have started threads to talk about the things they don't like in Arena. There's nothing wrong with that.

But you came in and hijacked a thread about someone being genuinely excited about a game you didn't even play, and when people called you out for it, you played the lame "oh, but it's my precious opinion!" card. Ugh.
 

Bob McDob

Better Health Through Less Flavor
I think you're missing, surprise, surprise, the context--in 2004 we were beset by jackasses coming here and wanting to fight about their favorite ripoff game. It was a funny response (with a double message, of course--the fact that we owned and played all those games in the first place).

Didn't you pay $20 for Independence War because you couldn't find one of your three copies of Starlancer?
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
New thread--happy?

Well, some good came from all this--I fixed the missing broken Dragon*Con images. Enjoy, people who like watching (or obsessing over) me having fun almost ten years ago.

I wanted to double back and make a few points, but first something obvious about your link occured to me: all other arguments aside, why would my doing something wrong give you the authority to, too? Two wrongs don't make a right.



Wing Commander 1 didn't cost millions and it still looks better than Arena (not the gfx off course but the rest).

This is a common misconception. We may think of Wing Commander I as a 'little project that could' that managed to get lucky and strike it big... but that is not the case at all. Wing Commander I was the most expensive computer game ever developed at the time--Origin invested more than a million dollars in the project, essentially betting the company (and years of Ultima profits) in the game. In fact, Wing Commander was the game that started the curent pay-for-a-blockbuster method of thinking in game publishing.

I think, they just made a little game and named it "Wing Commander" to earn more.. or they had good intentions but it didn't work out, I don't know.

I think we've chronicled the development fairly well here, but I will explain again: that just isn't the case. Wing Commander Arena is a Wing Commander game because the project's producer happened to be a Wing Commander fan. EA wanted to put out a space shooter of the style that is popular in Japan (they have some special genre name, but I don't know what it is). He basically begged them to let him do it as a Wing Commander game instead of a 'space shooter' as a gift for us--EA wasn't especially interested in revisiting the IP at the time.

... and it was 'Wing Commander Conflict' (later Arena) from the beginning of actual production (before they'd hired Gaia to put the game together).

But still, if you compare the game to other (not with 50 Million budged) available on xbox360, it has nothing new to offer and this move (to make simple space shooter more simple) was in wrong direction.

There are a few reasons for that. First of all, as Chris said it's an Xbox Live Arcade game rather than an Xbox 360 game... but more importantly, Wing Commander Arena came out in 2007 when XBLA games had to be 50 megabytes or smaller. That limit is gone today and every XBLA title is multiple gigabytes... but at the time it was something Microsoft wouldn't budge about. So the idea was to put as much as possible into a very small package, which was quite a challenge.

One I think Arena succeeds at very well. Its 'competitors' are Star Trek DAC (which I enjoy, but is *very* simple--three ships to choose from, one or two maps) and Battlestar Galactica (a game that has the distinction of being the only game ever removed from the service because it was so bad rather than for legal reasons).
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Didn't you pay $20 for Independence War because you couldn't find one of your three copies of Starlancer?

Hehehe, yeah, I think I remember that. It's also funny that I still own several copies of each of these games.

I actually did feel pretty bad about doing this when it happened (... many years ago...). It's honestly funnier on paper (and we had better ideas that we couldn't do at the hotel room that would have worked better as photographs--like a pretend satanic sacrifice with candles).

Star Crusader (which I played a lot when it was new) deserved the beating--it had this obnoxious little tab on the side of the box about how it was better than 'that other space game'... :)

FreeSpace I didn't mind because I disliked that Freespace guy so much--the one in the advertisements about how their game had 'real capital ships'. He was clearly trying to make himself a game dev rockstar and nobody cared (had a little headshot and everything).

I felt bad for Tachyon--that was a thoroughly inoffensive game that never did anything to anyone.

We should have done Battlecruiser... but maybe it wasn't out yet.
 

Flashpoint

Rear Admiral
Hmmm, this is all a bit mad isn't it?

The only thing I'll comment on (not Arena that's for sure, as I've never owned an Xbox in my life) is the use of the term rip-off.

While true for some games I really think others don't deserve the tag. I can completely understand LOAF not liking some jackass marketing guy (lets face it, marketing guys are usually a bit moronic), but I'd have to say that for me Freespace and Freespace 2, while they were space combat sims, were not rip offs. The story and the worlds tech were pretty different and I hugely enjoyed the way the missions were laid out . To me it was a great idea not to use nav points. I'm not putting WC down there, more giving FS a nod for not taking the easy route and copying WC. They actually found a different way of doing things.
I also liked that I felt like just another pilot and my actions seemed almost inconsequential at times, as space erupted around me.

In short, I love both and I love that they are so very different.
 
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