Kilrathi pantheon/religion

[Mekt-Hakkikt]

Hi!

Some days ago I thought about what we know about the Kilrathi religion and I have some thoughts/questions. Sadly, most of my WC stuff is in another town so I can't check everything and most of this is from my memory:

We know from SM2 that Sivar is the war god of the Kilrathi and that the Kilrathi honour him during the Sivar-Eshrad ceremony every year, offering him their blood for good luck in battle.

We know from the WCP intro that Sivar appeared to Kt'lan, the first prophetess of Kilrah and gave the prophecy about the Star Gods, recorded in the "Tome of Sivar".

But the WCP manual claims that Sivar was also a prophet - what do I make of this? That Sivar was a Kilrathi hero that became their main god? It also strikes me as weird because, after all, Kt'lan is supposed to be the first prophetess so there shouldn't have been a prophet before her. Unless of course it only means that Kt'lan was the first female prophet.

We know that the Kilrathi females run the cult and, IIRC, also much of the civil administration.

From FA we know about a famous temple dedicated to Sivar on Largkza, the second moon of Kilrah, where the Emperor wanted to attend to the Pukcal, a ritual of atonement. Do we know anything else about the Pukcal?

I guess that the name/title "God of the Running Death" applies to Sivar.

Is there any hint that the codeces shown in FC were given to the Kilrathi by Sivar?

There's a WC:CCG card that implies Sivar is female: the Drakhai Darket squadron "Favored by Sivar" has the motto "Blessed by the Goddess". But I don't buy that since there are many references to Sivar being male: "Lord Sivar", "Sivar himself appeared" and in all the books I've read he's called the war god, not goddess.
Now either the CCG is a typo or there are multiple Sivars.
I also thought of a "solution" but I have to admit that it's a bit far fetched and maybe isn't even a possible interpretation of the grammar:

"Favored by Sivar" could be some sort of title for a goddess that is favored by Sivar (his wife, a concubine) and not referencing to the squadron as being "favored by Sivar". And that goddess, "the Favored by Sivar", blessed the squadron.
Maybe I am just blinded by my imagination about WC but I also think that a Kilrathi war god should definately a male since they value strength and battle prowess so much and beside Thrakhath's sister I don't recall any female warrior.

We know that the Kilrathi have multiple gods since in the novels they talk about "gods" (Jukaga in FA e.g. when he plots the assassination of th Emperor).
Do we know any other gods by name?

So, that's all I can think of of the Kilrathi religion and gods.

Any feedback (corrections, own thoughts, extra facts) would be appreciated. Thanks in advanc.
And thanks to those who are going to bed now, as I am.

 

[Mace]

If you have a god of war, there is likely to be an entity for love, harvest, etc.

And i do not recall sivar being mentioned as a prophet, because sivar is himself a god, not a holy messenger.

Christ, Mohammed, Abraham, Mozes, Buddha, etc were prophets, as kt'la(h)n was a prophet, Sivar might have been a big strong and wise kilrathi warrior, who was later regarded as a god, but Odin, Wodan, Yahweh, Allah, etc. have never walked the earth as mortals, so it would be very unlikely for a society to accept this.

 

[ChrisReid]

There is both a Sivar goddess and Sivar prophet.

 

[Shaggy]

Gee this is pretty interesting, particulalrly considering I was working on making up some Kilrathi religious figures for Echo War. One was Samor'Khath who was the Kilrathi equivalent of Christ, only rather than being full of peace and love he was full of war and hunting.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

We know that the Kilrathi females run the cult and, IIRC, also much of the civil administration.

Not sure about the second part - I can't remember a reference for that.

I guess that the name/title "God of the Running Death" applies to Sivar.

I'd argue that it must be something else -- since it's a different name (albeit it translated into a concept-in-English).

Is there any hint that the codeces shown in FC were given to the Kilrathi by Sivar?

Not that I know of. The question of how a religion comes to be is complex... but the Kilrathi certainly seem to have no problem knowing that their religion was put together by multiple prophets at different times in their early history (so, not just Sivar).

There's a WC:CCG card that implies Sivar is female: the Drakhai Darket squadron "Favored by Sivar" has the motto "Blessed by the Goddess". But I don't buy that since there are many references to Sivar being male: "Lord Sivar", "Sivar himself appeared" and in all the books I've read he's called the war god, not goddess. Now either the CCG is a typo or there are multiple Sivars.

This isn't the CCG being weird -- they're picking up on something from the novels. From the Kilrathi ambassador in Fleet Action: "...as if the goddess had already reached into his heart to still its beating." This was something established internally during the Guon-era stuff, IIRC, that just never carried over -- the idea that the deity would be female because women run the cult... it peeks through the edges of the continuity on occasion, the CCG being a good example. (It may show up in the version of the Bible we have in /archive -- you'd have to dig through that yourself, though...).

It's Prophecy that stranges everything up (words like Lord and Master would be gender-neutral referring to a God) by introducing a Jesus/Mohammed-style male prophecy figure named Sivar who was important to Kilrathi religion. Of course, at the same time there's a tacit admission that the God(dess) exists before the figure: "'Prophecy of Sivar' (which many xenohistorians believe predates its reported authoress, the prophetess Kt'lan, and even the historical prophet Sivar himself..."). So, regardless of gender there's a Sivar deity distinct from the Sivar prophet.

We know that the Kilrathi have multiple gods since in the novels they talk about "gods" (Jukaga in FA e.g. when he plots the assassination of th Emperor).
Do we know any other gods by name?

False Colors refers to (alternatively) 'zaga' and 'naga' as 'the warrior spirit' -- does anyone have the citation? I'm not sure if it's in a figures-named-this or a concepts-named-this sense.

Any feedback (corrections, own thoughts, extra facts) would be appreciated. Thanks in advanc.

Take a look at the Freedom Flight/Crusade materials -- they set up a lot more about the Kilrathi belief system there than is usually followed up on. There's an elaborate system of gathering slaves for the afterlife, dying without Sivar's blessing and going to a void instead of an underworld and so forth that's established in the early material.

 

[Mekt-Hakkikt]

Thanks for the replies so far.

Not sure about the second part - I can't remember a reference for that.

I thought I read it in VoW when that pilot marks his 22nd kill but I checked it (thanks to the online version) and I was mistaken, he only talks about the religious business.

I'd argue that it must be something else -- since it's a different name (albeit it translated into a concept-in-English).

Yes, it may well be a different deity.

Not that I know of. The question of how a religion comes to be is complex... but the Kilrathi certainly seem to have no problem knowing that their religion was put together by multiple prophets at different times in their early history (so, not just Sivar).


This isn't the CCG being weird -- they're picking up on something from the novels. From the Kilrathi ambassador in Fleet Action: "...as if the goddess had already reached into his heart to still its beating." This was something established internally during the Guon-era stuff, IIRC, that just never carried over -- the idea that the deity would be female because women run the cult... it peeks through the edges of the continuity on occasion, the CCG being a good example. (It may show up in the version of the Bible we have in /archive -- you'd have to dig through that yourself, though...).

It's Prophecy that stranges everything up (words like Lord and Master would be gender-neutral referring to a God) by introducing a Jesus/Mohammed-style male prophecy figure named Sivar who was important to Kilrathi religion. Of course, at the same time there's a tacit admission that the God(dess) exists before the figure: "'Prophecy of Sivar' (which many xenohistorians believe predates its reported authoress, the prophetess Kt'lan, and even the historical prophet Sivar himself..."). So, regardless of gender there's a Sivar deity distinct from the Sivar prophet.

Ah, I see. The German translation of FA only says "the deity" thus I never stumbled upon that. While that still does not necessarily mean that Sivar is female (it could be any goddess that reached into his heart), it certainly puts things into perspective.
It still strikes me as odd because VoW and FC both call Sivar the war god, never female. But that's probably just my fixed mind and thinking about it, I certainly can live with a female war goddess, just need to get used to it.

And I agree that having a prophet named Sivar is much odder. So it was the prophet Sivar who appeared to Kt'lan?

I also skimmed quickly through the WC bible (not sure if I have the most recent version, should there have been more than one) and did not find any references to Sivar being female.

False Colors refers to (alternatively) 'zaga' and 'naga' as 'the warrior spirit' -- does anyone have the citation? I'm not sure if it's in a figures-named-this or a concepts-named-this sense.

I briefly skimmed through FC and didn't find those though I remember them as well.
But I found the name "Nargrast" for a Kilrathi hell (and apparently the have more than one).

I'll try to read through FF again the next days, maybe I'll find some new things.

Thanks again.

 

[Mekt-Hakkikt]

Hi again!

Having not much time to read for my pleasure, I'm still not through with FF but I found two 'new' aspects.

First, I found the part which led me to believe that:

(...)
We know that the Kilrathi females run the cult and, IIRC, also much of the civil administration.

(...)

It's when Ralgha is interrogated by Thorn and Halcyon and explains about the rebellion (p.112 of the German translation). Maybe that's again a translation problem or me not understanding correctly but translated, the passage says:

'Actually without [the women] the everyday management of the administration and the lands would not be possible.'

And it seems that the location chosen for the Sivar-Eshrad ceremony has always to be taken by force. No wonder the Kilrathi needed to expand aggressively.

I'll read some more pages tonight.

 

[Shades2585]

I always assumed that Sivar was male too and since their were no female worriers it seemed to make sense but just the other day I found a reference in FA saying Sivar was female.

I also always assumed that the Prophecy’s of Sivar were not written by Sivar but dictated by Sivar to Kt’lan. See the Prophecy Press Kit

I know Zaga is used in AS p.311 and is refered to as “The warrior spirit.” But I never thought of it as being a God. But it is capitalized. (who knows?) kaga AS p.116 is also referred to as “The warrior spirit.” But it’s not capitalized.

 

[AD]

...their were no female worriers...

Hehehe, that made me chuckle. I don't mean to pick on a typo. Just found the idea of women who don't worry funny.

 

[Mekt-Hakkikt]

I always assumed that Sivar was male too and since their were no female worriers (...)

Except Thrakhath's sister of course.

(...) but just the other day I found a reference in FA saying Sivar was female.

Is it the one LOAF cited ("...as if the goddess had already reached into his heart to still its beating.", the Kilrathi ambassador) or another one?
Because that phrase does not tell us that Sivar is female, only that some goddess exists. Though I admit, that it certainly hints at Sivar.

I also always assumed that the Prophecy’s of Sivar were not written by Sivar but dictated by Sivar to Kt’lan. See the Prophecy Press Kit

Certainly. After all the WCP intro also states "His words are recorded in the tome of Sivar.".

 

[Ijuin]

Perhaps it is the Goddess of Death that would still a warrior's heart? The consorts of War are usually fear and death, so there is a sense to the consorts of the war god being female.

 

[Shades2585]

Oops sorry about the TO.

FA p280
“We feared you were dead, my lord.”
“I was off ship, preparing to lead the next strike.”
“Sivar be praised. She guided you thus, my lord.”

 

[Mekt-Hakkikt]

Oops sorry about the TO.

FA p280
“We feared you were dead, my lord.”
“I was off ship, preparing to lead the next strike.”
“Sivar be praised. She guided you thus, my lord.”

Now that is a pretty clear quote. Thank you very much! Sivar is from now on a goddess for me. It's great to learn something new about such a basic WC aspect even after all those years.

But it also shows how translation screws things up : in the German translation, the decisive phrase is shortened to "Sivar be praised."


I'm through with FF but found nothing new.

 

[Shades2585]

BAD Translator! Bad translator! It makes one wonder what else is not in there. I always assumed translators gave you the full meaning or as close to it but not an abridged meaning.

 

[Death]

It does seem like some German translations of SF works tend to get "creative" with their work. Ask Jerry Pournelle about the German translation of his The Prince...

 

[QuailPilot]

In Freedom Flight when the future Hobbes was talked to about the Sivar Eshrad, he quoted,
"I do not believe in gods anymore."
What are some of the other gods?