Kilrathi motivations

S

Shipgate

Rear Admiral
So I was bringing this up in the IRC chat thingy and thought I'd pose this question to the lot of you.

Has the Kilrathi ever struck you as hedonistic? I mean, they were violent and wanted to conquer, but was it for the prize and relishing the prize and spoils? Or was it more just because they thought it was their right to be conquerers? They seemed way more concerned about personal honor than acquiring possessions. But is there any indication that they were obssessed with possessions and spoils of war and all that?
 
I think Kilrathi motivation lies in their origins as a predatory species. Fleet Action goes into this in some detail, as I recall. They have a lot of natural aggression, which for most of their history they took out on each other. Then when the Hari arrived and the Kilrathi achieved space travel, they managed to stop killing each other by focusing their aggression outward onto other races. The emporer and Thrakath were quite worried about the length of the armistice, because was it to go on too long, the clans would get restless, start to fight each other, and maybe even bring down the imperial family. Therefore, they constantly needed an outward enemy to fight in order to stay united.
 
I can understand all that. But are they obsessed with power in any way just for the sake of having power? And do they like to spend their money a lot is what I'm wondering. Do the most powerful of them have huge estates with lots of food lying around everywhere and women too. Maybe some kind of catnip that they indulge in. See what I'm getting at?
 
It wouldn't surprise me. Thrakath is pretty damn power-hungry. I'm sure all the nobles have vast estates they use as hunting grounds. Kilrathi sexuality is only vaguely alluded to, though like human monarchical, clan-based cultures I'm sure the nobles can afford to have tons of women, while the commoners are monogamous. Indeed, I think I recall a Darket pilot in Heart of the Tiger telling his wingmates to tell his lairmate he loved her.
 
Well him giving a message to his lair mate that he loved her seemed totally honorable and doesn't suggest hedonism at all. I like this word: hedonism.
 
Personally I like the word "presently". What relevance does that have to the present topic? None whatsoever.
But yeah, I didn't mean to suggest all Kilrathi are hedonistic. Rather, I think most of them are rather observant when it comes to the honor thing, but just like in all feudalistic cultures the nobility does pretty much whatever it wants, Thrakath and family being first among them.
 
Whatever species you have that's sentient you're always going to have SOMEONE who wants to be on top. That one person whose going to want the most power.

I mean you can see that in almost every aspect of our society from schoolyard bullies to People who run companies that are really just monopolies.

If you ask me the entire concept of the Kilrathi needing to fight to keep themselves unified seems like a poor excuse to keep the rich richer and the poor, well, poorer. As long as the war is going on the Clan Leaders have power.

Not to suggest that any of that is false, I'm sure there would be a war if the peace went on to long, just trying to point out some things I think are relevant here.
 
Actually, the Utara are the ones who gave the Kilrathi spaceflight - the Hari were the last race the Kilrathi fought before the Varni, IIRC. As far as the necessity for combat goes, the Clan leaders would have had power whether or not the war was on. However, the Clan leaders would also probably be fighting one another, to keep that power or to expand it, since their empire was based on conquest and expansion, and would only survive so long as it kept expanding.

It's not the unity of the race that the war with the Confederation helped the Kilrathi preserve - they were pretty much ready to start infighting after the failed Battle of Earth and the loss at Vukar Tag. What the fight with Confed DID do for the Kilrathi was to give them an outlet for the aggression they already had, along with an enemy to test themselves out on, as warriors - especially given that they (the warriors) are considered to be the highest in the hierarchy, and males of fighting age who are not engaged in battle are considered to be second-class citizens, at least by those who follow the teachings of Sivar, which means most of the Empire. Slaves are supposed to be the ones who do the menial tasks which keep the Empire running, that and the women.
 
Slaves are supposed to be the ones who do the menial tasks which keep the Empire running, that and the women.
Click to expand...

Or as they like to say on documentaries of the Roman Empire on the History Channel, "booty." :)

Really the Kilrathi are just doing the same thing as any other empire in history has done, conquering and expanding. Of course there's the Kilrathi that always want to be on top and have all the power, you can look at Rome again, emporers were assassinated left and right by ambitious people wanting to take their place as the ruler of the known world.

The Kilrtathi are also of course, as it's been mentioned, instinctually violent and need to take out that hunting instinct on something other than themselves. That's what the novels tell us, but I agree that there's more to it than that. It's simple imperialism, and ancient human empires have been just as aggresive and violent.

I like to view the Kilrathi as a race that wasn't quite ready for space travel, they still have their violent conquering and imperial government ways and then enter the Utara to unwittingly give them access to a new way to expand their empire.
 
Well stated, but there's something you should recognize:

While the Kilrathi may be esposuing the same ideals as the old Imperialist powers, there are a lot of psychological and cultural factors that make that a preferred social policy. Their entire culture is closer to that of Japan, a hard combination of the old feudal era and the Imperialist rulers who started coming into power after Perry opened Japan to the West. That's a dangerous mix, and the Kilrathi throw a predator's mind and instincts into it, or really, causing it. It is probable, though not certain, that their 'underlying' social order is similar to that of a lion pride. Their entire cultural identity is build around a hierarchy and an assumption of superiority that, in their mind, is entirely justified. When you recognize that fact, you see that the imperialistic, expansionist policies make a lot more sense. That doesn't make them right or the best choice in the long-term, but it does make them understandable.

Yes, their motivations are basically imperialistic, but there's more to it than that, too. Maybe not all that much more, but there is more.

The point that 'ancient' human empires have been just as violent is accurate, but there are recent examples that were just as bad (Nazi Germany, some Latin American or African governments, and Imperial Japan have all been very, very violent and dangerous). However, there seems to be very little counterweight to that violence in Kilrathi history or culture, whereas there are numerous philosophers and religious leaders throughout human history who have argued against war. That's one reason that the situation present in False Colors existed, as the Kilrathi knew nothing but war.
 
My two cents...

Heya, fellas.

Saw this discussion on the forums, and figured I'd chime in. Since I'm in the process of trying to write a fan fiction based on the WCU following the events that take place in Prophecy and SO while remaining true to the spirit of WC, I've been trying to get inside the heads of the various groups - UBW, Confed, the Kilrathi, the Nephilim, etc. - to try and figure out what makes them tick.

As far as the Kilrathi are concerned, I tend to agree that it's in their nature to do battle - it's a natural instinct for them. Generally speaking, I don't really envision them as the kinds of conquerers who conquer for the spoils, though I guess I could see them keeping some kind of memorabilia from a defeated skillfull ally (I'm inclined to think Thrakhath would've probably paraded around with Blair's head on a stick if he could ever get it, if for nothing else than to prove to his brethren how inferior the humans truly were).

When it comes to the Kilrathi, I picture a kind of Darwinian Theory...they seem to support the idea of having the strong flourish and the weak perish - even among their own species.

Additionally, they also seem to be strong believers in their war god, Sivar, as I think a sizeable chunk of their forces all gather at designated places each year to give a ceremonial praise to their war god (a gathering which the Tiger's Claw and the Firekkans exploit in WC1:SM2). There's also the Prophecy of Sivar...whether that was just tacked on for the latest chapter of Wing Commander or not is anybody's guess. But if you follow the logic of it, it explains at least some of the reasoning behind the Kilrathi's conquering ways. They were challenged by a superior species way back when who deemed their forces unworthy to do battle with, and swore to return at some point in the future to challenge them in a final battle if they prevailed in their wars leading up to that moment, or wipe them and their victor out when the time came that they were defeated (which is what WC:p focuses on either coincidentally or quite legitimately).

So you have this race of war-loving creatures who believe in the strongest prevailing...and at the back of their minds always is the fear of what's at stake should they fail.

They are, obviously, a very aggressive race and will just as easily take their hostilities out on one another if another foe is not present. Words like "honor" and "loyalty," while used by the Kilrathi, are not necessarily held in as high a regard as their notion of the strong winning out in every case. They (remember, I'm using "they" to mean on average...I'd like to think there's always individuals who don't necessarily conform to the norm) - at least the warrior class - seem to have little respect for authority (I think in WC2, Thrakhath is talking to his cousin, Khasra, and Khasra basically challenges his Lord's position after the failures they've had...he still can't understand why Thrakhath still holds the Emperor's favor as heir to the throne of Kilrah...Thrakhath's reply is that it's probably because he's one of the few who hasn't tried to murder him).

Following the defeat of the Kilrathi, I'm also inclined to believe that their whole civilization has collapsed into a state of civil war and anarchy (though I must confess I have nothing to back that up with as of yet), as they're stuck picking up the pieces, clans probably blaming other clans for the destruction of Kilrah, etc.

I can't really argue the notion of the Kilrathi having technology before it should be their time to possess it (i.e. space travel)...it's hard to say. If you take the Nephilim, there's another warring, expansionist (or at least SEEMS to be) species with advanced technology. So it's hard to say if the Kilrathi should possess it or not. If you asked them, they'd probably argue that they won the right to the technology by defeating an enemy for it, and they'd probably have a point in that regard. They don't appear to be stupid of foolish, so I'm inclined to think that they are indeed worthy of space travel....unfortunately, their nature puts them at odds with everyone else. If there's one potential downfall in the nature of the Kilrathi, I think it would probably be pride. But then, that's probably Humanity's problem as well.

So sorry for all the tangents that have come from this...but to answer a part of your original question, Shipgate - I personally (and this is just a matter of opinion, mind you) feel that the Kilrathi are conquerers because it's in their nature - they think it's their divine right. I think that's the chief reason behind it - they have a huge superiority complex. As for the spoils...I think they just take what they can use or gloat about on the way (but those are just added perks of their violent manifest destiny).

At any rate, those are my thoughts...take em or leave em.

- FireFalcon ~};^
 
That comes back to cultural factors, as several of us have argued, but their fundemental psychology and sociology does predispose them towards devloping those beliefs, yes.

It's most likely no more genetically hard-coded than any other belief is. If a Kilrathi were raised in a human culture, they would likely be a part of that culture, if a violent one. They might be warriros, but ones with a set of values more akin to that of Bondarevsky than Thrakhath.
 
You had a good point there, Moonsword.

Again, my whole lengthy discertation there was simply as things apply to the norm (in this case, the Kilrathi Empire itself). I don't doubt that there could be Kilrathi raised by humans (and even some who aren't) who would not be as barbaric or violent as many of the cats of the Kilrathi Empire, but likewise, there could be those cases where a Kilrathi raised by humans would feel more of a yearning to be with his violent brethren as well. I just think we can all agree that the way the Kilrathi Empire was and probably will continue to be in the future (as all empires historically, for that matter)...is that they don't really lend themselves well to having a group of free thinkers. It's more like the strongest rises to the top and dictates to the rest.

In answer to what you brought up, I just personally feel these things kind of go hand-in-hand - psychology, sociology, beliefs, culture. If you take people today, they may be raised with a set of predetermined Christian beliefs and ideas on right and wrong, for example, which affects psychological and to a degree sociological development. So it's kind of hard to say which comes first - the chicken or the egg. Likewise, it's somewhat irrelevant too. In all likelihood, psychology and sociology way back when influenced the way people thought and caused them to develop a set of beliefs...beliefs which have influenced generations. This has happened with our own history as a species, so we might as well figure the same happened with the development of the Kilrathi over the years. Their society developed to the point of giving them the diety of Sivar which, in turn, became perhaps not only merely the cornerstone of their faith, but arguably the very basis of their society and justification for their nature for generations to come.

At any rate, what I wrote in that lengthy post was simply for the sake of trying to answer some of Shipgate's questions. His questions seemed more tailored to the Kilrathi Empire in general rather than to the development of Kilrathi psychology and sociology on an individual basis, so that's more or less how I attempted to address my answer. My apologies if something got lost in the translation, or if I strayed from my original intent.

- FireFalcon ~};^
 
there could be those cases where a Kilrathi raised by humans would feel more of a yearning to be with his violent brethren as well.
Click to expand...

Sounds like Worf from Star Trek, raised by humans but still wanted to do all things and be all things Klingon.
 
After the Kilrathi were defeated, I actually picture the majority of them becoming quite docile in the future. With the minority being the few that still fly ships and do combat in space.

While the majority of them I picture actually starting to dwell on philosophy more and becoming less aggressive. And in time, it would get to the point that they are so uninterested in fighting, that they start studying the Terrans more and realizing how violent they are becoming. Then maybe they will have reached some conclusion that it was a part of the Kilrathi's evolution to be infected with bloodlust for thousands and thousands of years until gradually, the bloodlust ran thin and they started seeking answers in something other than killing and conquering. Then they would start to realize that with how much the humans keep expanding and getting into battles with other races and themselves (I am picturing this at least a thousand years after the destruction of Kilrah), that the Terrans are at the peak of their bloodlusting too and it will soon be out of control to the point where they merely become conquerors.

It is at this point that I picture the Kilrathi eventually just becoming total isolationsists after finding a far and distant planet that no one really knows about. And it is on this new planet they will continue to study their past and ponder the nature of things and they will become really advanced at mathematics and philosophy. Then they would have some long golden age of peace. It is by then that they have lost any contact with the outside universe and know nothing updated about the Terrans. And by this time, maybe even a little further, they have actually come to resemble apes a bit more than lions and tigers. Or maybe they retain their feline appearance but their frames become smaller and they grow more agile and nimble. This is at least a few thousand years after they have become isolationists. At which time back in the Terran territory, the rest of the war-faring Kilrathi have been wiped out and there are now several myths about if there are anymore Kilrathi left in the universe.

It is by this time that I picture Confed space becoming so huge, that just like the Border Worlds, became independent, so did many other parts of space. To the point where there are dozens of large factions out there, many of which are easily a match for Confed. And there has been strife within the Terrans for thousands of years.

I don't know. It's all a bit of a stretch. But I always picture the Kilrathi ending up like that and it kind of all starts with the visionary leadership of Melek and his questioning what his race was all about and how being so violent and aggressive nearly wiped out his race.
 
Hey again, fellas.

Well, I'm not going to argue the future of the Kilrathi at all. I've honestly never really given it much thought. There's no reason why your prediction for the future wouldn't hold true. I personally have a different take on it, but hey - to each his own. :)

The way I envision it...while Melek did display an unexpected, almost visionary attitude following the destruction of Kilrah and personally surrendered to the Heart of the Tiger, I just always felt like Blair could've just as easily wound up on a ship with some seriously irrate cats ready to rip him a new one for destroying their homeworld. I just passed it off as a bit of dumb luck on Blair's part...but I could be just as easily mistaken. :)

I must confess when I started reading your predictions for the future of the Kilrathi, it started to sound almost like the Orcs from Blizzard's Warcraft games - losing their bloodlust over the ages...an idea which becomes perhaps most prevalent in Warcraft 3. But I can definitely see a commonality between the orcs there and the Kilrathi in Wing Commander, so I can't really dispute you there.

I guess the way I just saw it...by the time Prophecy gets into full swing, the cats have another enemy to fight, whether they want it or not. Though I would think the destruction of Kilrah would have sent their society spiralling into perhaps a more introvertive state of mind as suggested by Melek's actions and words at the end of WC3, I'm equally inclined to think that the attack of the Nephilim would have lit a match under the Kilrathi's inherent warrior spirit...and caused them to wave their violent tribal banners once more in service to the Empire to stave off the coming deluge of enemies. Coupled with that is what LOAF posted as a reply to my first post here - where he referenced material related to Prophecy and SO which lists that after the events of these games, more Nephilim gateways were detected throughout Kilrathi space (3 different sectors were listed, to be accurate).

So even if the Kilrathi would choose isolationism, I think that time has not yet come. I'm under the impression that against the Nephilim now, they're fighting a kind of war they're not yet accustomed to - one of survival against a superior adversary.

So time will tell what awaits the Kilrathi. But I can tell you this...in the story I'm writing, I've already decided to have an older Kilrathi who would fit very nicely into your philosophical future society for the cats, I think. :)

- FireFalcon ~};^
 
But Confed's used to it, and they're on the Kilrathi's side, this time. Two former enemies, standing together fighting a common foe. Interesting image, that.
 
Well, by saying it was dumb luck that he just happened on Melek's ship, your right, it was dumb luck, but your acknowledging the fact that Melek still have a picture in mind of what needed to be done for the Kilrathi to survive. And therefor, was still indeed a visionary leader.

And yes, one must bear in mind that all those ways that I pictured the Kilrathi being, I do picture them thousands of years after the destruction of their homeworld. Say, maybe a couple thousand years by the time the soon to be isolationists actually left and found their new homeworld. Then the rest is just left to the imaginiation. You say it sounds reminiscent of the Orcs in Warcraft. I agree it kind of does. But I just picture that it would be a cycle for such honor bound races to want nothing but war, then nothing but peace because they are weary of war and wish to find honor in other ways. Nevertheless, I should go back and think over what I've written about all this. I'd like to hear more of your ideas X Firefalcon on all this. And I'm interested in reading what you've been writing as well for your story.
 
Assuming the Kilrathi Empire was a totalitarian state, which is shaky considering the constant unrest of the clans, I always thought the Kilrathi leadership kept the Empire at war in order to preserve the social stratification of the Empire.

The same principle is used in "1984," where Oceania, Eurasia, and Eastasia were constantly at war with each other in order to focus the hate of the middle and lower classes outward (this was already mentioned previously). Thus keeping the 'out' classes from rebelling and reorganizing the society's social stratification.

I always looked at the honor code and the dedication to Sivar as tools of the elites, means to an end if you will. The Kilrathi elites fostered a system of xenophobia and fanatical obedience to reinforce their position at the top of the pecking order.


Okay, I'll go back to my Marx and Weber now.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top