Jazz vs. Seether
- Thread starter frostytheplebe
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Mace
Vice Admiral
Though i never had the chance to read the novell(and it's not available here, and i go to plenty "cult"book stores, and i do not use ebay, i have been cheated enough with it for collectors items.) I remember that someone confirmed that blair had to use one of his own tactics(the mine trick) against him, correct me I'm wrong. Also seether was created to be an evil bastard, while jazz was a determined spy and a cheater, which is much more dangerous. On the other hand, Jazz is an artist, so he would probably go for a combat on an equal level, where seether would just decloak and open up with his entire arsenal.
I would like to discuss why the dragon would be a much better (dog)fighter then the morningstar, the dragon is a lot larger framed, so it would give you a hell of a lot more to aim your guns at, and in a one-on-one, using correct tactics, each fighter could take the other down in a single blow. if both were damaged in combat, spilled their ammo and had to duke it out, the dragon would win though, no doubt.
Farbourne
Rear Admiral
There's really two issues being discussed here: who is a better pilot (Jazz or Seether), and how well could a Morningstar handle fighting a Lance/Dragon.
Regarding the first question, I have to give it to Jazz. Yes, Seether was genetically engineered to be a superior pilot, but that doesn't mean that he's automatically better than Jazz. Military pilots today are literally the best of the best--so many people want the job that the military can afford to take only the absolute best and leave out any that have even the slightest drawback (e.g. imperfect vision). I imagine that pilots in WC are the same way--they're the absolute best (at piloting) that humanity has to offer. Furthermore, Jazz was particularly good even as pilots go, so he's the best of the best of the best. Such "natural" selection (pun intended) should produce a person that is genetically as good as anything GE could produce. I think Jazz has the edge because of experience. Natural talent takes you only so far, and then experience is king. During WWII, pilots figured out that once someone survived their first five combat missions, they were infinitely more likely to survive their next twenty or so, because if they survived long enough to get five combat missions under their belt, their experience gave them enough of an edge that they were way better than rookies. Jazz (at the time of his death) had at least ten years of combat experience, fighting Kilrathi and humans, and often doing so in outmatched ships (Hornets versus Hriss, Sabers versus Gothri, etc.). Angel even stated that he was the best pilot on the Concordia until Blair showed up. Seether had far less experience (did he actually ever fly in the war?), and what he did have largely came flying much more advanced fighters than his opposition (Lance versus Hellcats or Banshees). So I think, all other things being equal, Jazz would have been the better pilot at the time of their respective deaths.
The Morningstar versus the Lance/Dragon is an interesting question. Obviously, the Lance is a more advanced fighter, and there's nothing that says one can't carry a Mace (although we'll assume standard loadouts here). Tactically, a Lance could win a large percentage of the time just by simply cloaking, charging up its fission cannon, decloaking on the Morningstar's tail, and smoking it with one shot (we see Seether do exactly this to Russo and Sparks in Hellcats...only Vinman manages to actually dogfight at all, if I recall correctly). However, the Mace does give the Morningstar a chance. If the Morningstar pilot can keep flying randomly enough to keep the cloaked Lance from parking on it's tail, and manage to get pointed at the Lance as it de-cloacks, its Mace can take the Lance down with one hit (as John "Starkiller" Sheridan once said, nukes don't care whether they can lock onto a target or not). I would estimate that, in the hands of equal pilots both familiar with the capabilities of both ships, the Lance would win 65-70% of the time.
Regarding the first question, I have to give it to Jazz. Yes, Seether was genetically engineered to be a superior pilot, but that doesn't mean that he's automatically better than Jazz. Military pilots today are literally the best of the best--so many people want the job that the military can afford to take only the absolute best and leave out any that have even the slightest drawback (e.g. imperfect vision). I imagine that pilots in WC are the same way--they're the absolute best (at piloting) that humanity has to offer. Furthermore, Jazz was particularly good even as pilots go, so he's the best of the best of the best. Such "natural" selection (pun intended) should produce a person that is genetically as good as anything GE could produce. I think Jazz has the edge because of experience. Natural talent takes you only so far, and then experience is king. During WWII, pilots figured out that once someone survived their first five combat missions, they were infinitely more likely to survive their next twenty or so, because if they survived long enough to get five combat missions under their belt, their experience gave them enough of an edge that they were way better than rookies. Jazz (at the time of his death) had at least ten years of combat experience, fighting Kilrathi and humans, and often doing so in outmatched ships (Hornets versus Hriss, Sabers versus Gothri, etc.). Angel even stated that he was the best pilot on the Concordia until Blair showed up. Seether had far less experience (did he actually ever fly in the war?), and what he did have largely came flying much more advanced fighters than his opposition (Lance versus Hellcats or Banshees). So I think, all other things being equal, Jazz would have been the better pilot at the time of their respective deaths.
The Morningstar versus the Lance/Dragon is an interesting question. Obviously, the Lance is a more advanced fighter, and there's nothing that says one can't carry a Mace (although we'll assume standard loadouts here). Tactically, a Lance could win a large percentage of the time just by simply cloaking, charging up its fission cannon, decloaking on the Morningstar's tail, and smoking it with one shot (we see Seether do exactly this to Russo and Sparks in Hellcats...only Vinman manages to actually dogfight at all, if I recall correctly). However, the Mace does give the Morningstar a chance. If the Morningstar pilot can keep flying randomly enough to keep the cloaked Lance from parking on it's tail, and manage to get pointed at the Lance as it de-cloacks, its Mace can take the Lance down with one hit (as John "Starkiller" Sheridan once said, nukes don't care whether they can lock onto a target or not). I would estimate that, in the hands of equal pilots both familiar with the capabilities of both ships, the Lance would win 65-70% of the time.
Mace
Vice Admiral
Actually, as farbourne is stating the obvious, in tactics a morningstar could take down a dragon with ease, and the other way around, you need to know what you are dealing with when going one-on-one. as it's the man, not the machine. And as for cloaked it is established a wing commander universe type fighter can't fire cloaked. however missile locks? and i do not know if you can charge the fissions while cloaked.
But, let's compare it to "blazing angels: squadrons of WWII", i play that a lot, if some of you did, you would notice that unskilled pilots just take aim and open up their guns, while the real players tend to taunt one another, engage and go low and slow fighting and chasing through the london bombardment scenerio. Jazz would go for the challenge, seether would kill you the moment he saw you. Ofcourse soldiers might have honor, and war does not.
But, let's compare it to "blazing angels: squadrons of WWII", i play that a lot, if some of you did, you would notice that unskilled pilots just take aim and open up their guns, while the real players tend to taunt one another, engage and go low and slow fighting and chasing through the london bombardment scenerio. Jazz would go for the challenge, seether would kill you the moment he saw you. Ofcourse soldiers might have honor, and war does not.
Dundradal
Frog Blast the Vent Core!
Makes you wonder if Jazz's DNA was also part of Seether's GE package. We know Blair was as well as some others that were Confed's finest.
Just to stir the pot a bit.
Mekt-Hakkikt
Mpanty's bane
I wonder - is it ever explicitly mentioned that Jazz is that good as a pilot? Of course, we get mentions that he is a good pilot, decorated and so on. But do we have any reason to believe that in-universe he is that much better than, say, Hunter, Iceman or even Spirit? I don't recall that he ever has been called "one of Confed's leading top aces" or anything like that.
Seether on the other hand is introduced as a specifically bred fighter pilot, "excellence personified" and a "true master".
So in-universe, I'm pretty sure that Seether is supposed to be the better pilot. And as much as I like the Morningstar, I don't think it's a match for the Dragon which is to me still the most powerful fighter relative to its time ever in WC.
Seether on the other hand is introduced as a specifically bred fighter pilot, "excellence personified" and a "true master".
So in-universe, I'm pretty sure that Seether is supposed to be the better pilot. And as much as I like the Morningstar, I don't think it's a match for the Dragon which is to me still the most powerful fighter relative to its time ever in WC.
Mekt-Hakkikt
Mpanty's bane
It does account for something but I am still not convinced that it means Jazz is a flying marvel. On the other hand - what else should they tell us to make clear that Jazz is a top fighter.
I still vote for Seether.
I still vote for Seether.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Lets talk about Jazz.
I was thinking about your idea that he might have been involved in the GE program's spec. Now, I should go ahead and point out that it's a specious argument -- without knowing there's no reasonable way to argue this. It's possible, obviously, but without evidence one way or another so is *anything*.
But that got me thinking - what do we know about Jazz? I looked over some notes and realized that there's some confusion about the man... specifically, his age (especially compared to Blair) and exactly what he has been doing with his life.
In Freedom Flight, Jazz is described as being very young (Hunter uses words like 'young man' and 'boy,' and even describes him as being 'maybe twenty years old')... and seemingly at the very start of his career. He says he's flown two combat missions and scored two kills (a Salthi and a Dralthi, for those keeping track with the home game). That's early/mid-2655 and he's a Lieutenant.
...but! Super Wing Commander, Wing Commander SegaCD and Kilrathi Saga include a pilot bio for Jazz. That bio (and his transfer orders) say that he's a Major and 32 years old in 2656 (you could even argue that that the bio is two years older since it's in the SWC Claw Marks, but the age is dated in the Kilrathi Saga transfer orders.) It claims he graduated the Academy top of his class nine years earlier and that he has shot down 28 Kilrathi. That puts his birth year as ~2624 and his Academy graduation year as 2647 - noticeably older than Blair (2632/2654, respectively).
How do we make sense of all this? My feeling was always that, however unspoken, Jazz was Blair's replacement -- at the very least, in Tolwyn's eyes. Blair betrays and embarrasses his former mentor at Dolos... and from that point on all the way through Enigma, the Admiral has a way sexier new top pilot (who was, for all intents and purposes, above suspicion).
But what do we make of this background? The only story I can derive is that maybe Jazz didn't start off his career as a combat pilot... but since he's mentioned in Claw Marks as one (some versions mention that he's flying first-response patrols in the Enigma Sector in April, 2654), he can't have simply transferred to the flight line because of his brother's death. In any event, something happens in 2655 that takes him from a Lieutenant with two kills to a Major with an ace of aces ribbon in roughly a year... just like Blair, the year before.
I was thinking about your idea that he might have been involved in the GE program's spec. Now, I should go ahead and point out that it's a specious argument -- without knowing there's no reasonable way to argue this. It's possible, obviously, but without evidence one way or another so is *anything*.
But that got me thinking - what do we know about Jazz? I looked over some notes and realized that there's some confusion about the man... specifically, his age (especially compared to Blair) and exactly what he has been doing with his life.
In Freedom Flight, Jazz is described as being very young (Hunter uses words like 'young man' and 'boy,' and even describes him as being 'maybe twenty years old')... and seemingly at the very start of his career. He says he's flown two combat missions and scored two kills (a Salthi and a Dralthi, for those keeping track with the home game). That's early/mid-2655 and he's a Lieutenant.
...but! Super Wing Commander, Wing Commander SegaCD and Kilrathi Saga include a pilot bio for Jazz. That bio (and his transfer orders) say that he's a Major and 32 years old in 2656 (you could even argue that that the bio is two years older since it's in the SWC Claw Marks, but the age is dated in the Kilrathi Saga transfer orders.) It claims he graduated the Academy top of his class nine years earlier and that he has shot down 28 Kilrathi. That puts his birth year as ~2624 and his Academy graduation year as 2647 - noticeably older than Blair (2632/2654, respectively).
How do we make sense of all this? My feeling was always that, however unspoken, Jazz was Blair's replacement -- at the very least, in Tolwyn's eyes. Blair betrays and embarrasses his former mentor at Dolos... and from that point on all the way through Enigma, the Admiral has a way sexier new top pilot (who was, for all intents and purposes, above suspicion).
But what do we make of this background? The only story I can derive is that maybe Jazz didn't start off his career as a combat pilot... but since he's mentioned in Claw Marks as one (some versions mention that he's flying first-response patrols in the Enigma Sector in April, 2654), he can't have simply transferred to the flight line because of his brother's death. In any event, something happens in 2655 that takes him from a Lieutenant with two kills to a Major with an ace of aces ribbon in roughly a year... just like Blair, the year before.
Mace
Vice Admiral
Agreed but it's again the man and not the machine, in combat, each could take the other down in a single blow, if both came in clean and the pilot was to know what he was facing and how to handle it, could you integrate the dragon in WCP multiplayer, and use upgraded shields(excalibur levels should suffice to fit in the timeline), both fighters have an equal chance, if you dog it out, it's still the pilot, but with equal pilots the dragon wins hands-down.
Jazz is an artist, and he would go for true defeat rather then an easy kill.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
That's what she said.
Discussion: How old do you folks think Seether is?
Discussion: How old do you folks think Seether is?
ELTEE
Vice Admiral
That's a difficult question. It has been quite a while since I have read Price of Freedom or played through WCIV, but I suppose we would have to look back at when the genetic enhancement program began to enter operational status. Obviously, it would have been started long before the events of WCIV and would have taken time to compile all of the required DNA samples - this 'lead' time would have to be accounted for.
In addition, I seem to recall mention of several failed 'products' before the success of Seether was realized.
My on screen impression was late twenties early thirties - but I'd think that there would be perhaps an even greater age difference between Seether and Blair.
In addition, I seem to recall mention of several failed 'products' before the success of Seether was realized.
My on screen impression was late twenties early thirties - but I'd think that there would be perhaps an even greater age difference between Seether and Blair.
AD
Finder of things, Doer of stuff
There's a telling conversation with Hawk in WC4 (SC_1720A) where hawk says that when he first signed on with confed he was assigned to the ship seether was on. Hawk served with him long enough to see the mine/afterburner manoever in action but short enought to not remember his name and only his call sign. He mentions that seether was quicky transfered to 'confed intelligence ops.'
Also, Hawk remembers hearing talk of the GE program at *that* time.
Other interesting Hawk details... one of his first posts was as a comm officer on the Tiger's claw. He later went to flight school and served with Iceman for a time after graduating. So did seether serve with Iceman too? does any of this give us a better idea of how old seether is?
There is more than some contradictory statments. AFAIK the novel states that seether has genetic material form confed's best pilots, among them Blair. Now Blair has actually finished the Academy and became a combat pilot in 2654, so his DNA couldn't have been used earlier. According to S*S timeline the events of WCVI take place in 2673 witch makes Seether at most 18 (given standart human 9 months pregnancy)
Now contradictory to this Hawk states in game he met Seether "when he first signed with Confed". If we are to understand that he actually ment when he became fighter pilot, it would still indicated seether was well below or around 10 years old.
-possible explenations:
1. Blair's DNA was chosen while he was very young, actually not because of his piloting skills, but rather his Pilgrim ancestry
or
2. GE program didn't only change Seethers DNA, but also accelerated his growth (some Kilrathi genes maybe? we know for sure that cats mature much faster than humans)
Personally I'll go for number 2. because AFAIK Blairs' pilgrim ancestry hasn't been widely known subject (although i haven't watched the movie so not sure about this) and it wolud explain Seethers somewhat childish personality (the lord of the flies type).
The deadline is either way he can't be any older than Blair
AD
Finder of things, Doer of stuff
You're forgetting that this is genetic *enhancement* and not engineering. What's to say that they aren't injecting test subjects with something that reforms their DNA to include a desired trait?
ChrisReid
Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
You need to watch the movie! The XO of the Tiger's Claw guessed his Pilgrim ancestry based off his name and relation to his father. The everyday pilots were surprised later, but it wasn't a giant secret.
That's what I was going for. That seems possible given the info we have.
Delance
Victory, you say?
Blair had more experience in space combat. He has also defeated more Kilrathi aces than anyone else, which means he has an specific experience in this kind of duel. It's not surprising he could beat Seether.
Death
gh0d (Administrator)
Experience and treachery will beat youth and enthusiasm 9 out of 10 times. Especially when the other guy is too fixated on his current target to respond to a more immediate threat than a beat-to-hell medium fighter, as shown in the novelization.
That said, while Seether was above average for a human, he wasn't "superhuman". The enhancement gave him an edge over a non-enhanced person of similar training and experience, yes, but it doesn't necessarily mean he'll beat an opponent with 20-odd years of combat experience.