I've Got that Sinking Feeling (November 10, 2010)

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Here's one final mystery: a single still from Wing Commander III included in Origin's web materials that doesn't fit with the others... or the game itself! This brilliant picture of the Tiger's Claw is a great "what's wrong with this picture" exercize: it has Arrows instead of Hellcats, a different placement for the beach rocks and is missing the characters' shadows. Notice anything else? The file itself doesn't match the web department's other FMV captures--it's called "LSBD1170" instead of "STILL#" and is dated July 6, 1994, nearly two months before any of the others. The original scene from the game is displayed on the right.





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Original update published on November 10, 2010
 
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what's wrong with that picture is it's the TCS Concordia not the TCS Tiger's Claw... Interestingly it's a much sharper image than the final cutscene used in the games... makes me wonder if EA has higher quality versions of the footage kicking around somewhere.
 
Ship name aside, I wouldn't think that the FMV was necessarily stored at this higher resolution in its entirety. This is mostly CG, the live action segments themselves may have been filmed at a different resolution.

I'm just guessing, though.
 
That makes sense to me Wedge. I would've thought it something that's a kind of concept piece for the scene, but here we have an FMV capture. It's rather puzzling. These days I'd expect something like this from a game... a concept screen here and there of decent resolution, but not back in 1994. At least, not one that I'd remember 16 years later.

I was just pointing out the ship name in the interest of keeping the record straight. It was bothering me and I just had to say something. I figured I had to considering how many times I saw the cutscene. I played WC3 a lot back then. :D
 
most cg movies are rendered out in 4096x4096 then scaled/cut down to what ends up on your home bluray/dvd discs. I've got friends in the industry and it's a pretty common practice to render at a higher res than the final product. Then render it down to a lower resolution for shipping. The thing is they do ALL their editing at the higher resolution then render the final product down for shipping. Whether EA would still have copies of that higher resolution work is unknown though.
 
I'm aware of that, at least in the context of large-budget film-making today. The same applies to music CDs: they're mastered and edited in a much higher resolution than the 16-bit 44.1 kHz sampling that's standard on audio CDs.

But this is WC3 we're talking about: as I recall, the live action was filmed on VHS - 35mm film wasn't used until WC4. The CG sequences would have taken a big chunk of time to render too, I doubt they would have done it with any great deal more resolution than the final product delivered on CDs.

It was bothering me and I just had to say something.
No, that's fine, I just wanted to say that I recognised it too, but wasn't necessarily making a comment on it one way or another.
 
Wedge is right - VHS is much lower quality than 35mm film. What this means is that even if the CG were indeed rendered in 4096x4096 (which I doubt - Origin was not a professional film studio, nor were they working with DVD in mind), such high resolution images would be utterly useless - blowing up VHS people to 4096x4096 would give pretty horrid results, especially if these blown-up people were then placed on a sharp CG background.

The other thing is - just look at the quality of the computer graphics on these images. Even in the low resolution used in the game, you can see that the dirt Paladin and Blair are standing on is pretty awful. At higher resolutions, it would be unbearably ugly.
 
I think you're misunderstanding what I was saying. It is common practice to render out artwork at a resolution higher than that which will actually be used. I'm not saying wing commander 3 was done at 4096x4096, I'm saying that it was probably done at say 512x512, or 640x640 or 768x768, which is still higher than the 512x384 resolution of VHS/Analog TV. Also, the Wing Commander 3 footage in the console games is lower resolution than the PC version, and the PC version is heavily compressed. There would have been a better version of the PC footage used to make the games. Whether or not that footage would still exist is another matter entirely. I was saying it is possible there might be a higher resolution version than even the uncompressed PC footage from when they rendered out the CG. The image hints at that. Whether they bothered to back it up or not is another question.
 
It may be my imagination, or the difference in camera angle/resolution/lighting/etc, but the figure on the right doesn’t look big enough to be John Rhys-Davis. My guess is that this is a 'proof of concept' image of some sort, or something similar, with stand-ins in place of the actors.
 
makes me wonder if EA has higher quality versions of the footage kicking around somewhere

There was no sign of any uncompressed footage in the material they saved after closing Origin. If it's out there then it's in private hands somewhere.

most cg movies are rendered out in 4096x4096 then scaled/cut down to what ends up on your home bluray/dvd discs.

Well, yes, but you're missing the important step that explains why that is: before 'most CG movies' wind up on your shelf they're first shown in theaters, either after being put on 35mm film or through digital cinema projectors (which have a resolution of, surprise, 4096x2160).

Wing Commander III was never intended for a higher resolution than what we saw in the game. You're overestimating the render power available, too. There wasn't processing power to spare for secret high res graphics. The next project, Wing Commander IV, had five times the budget and plans to do a very early spec DVD version... and the huge amount of computer time needed for the renders meant they couldn't go back and fix errors (like the numbering on the Vesuvius/Mt. St. Helens) and that they even ended up doing some scenes at a lower resolution for lack of time (like the Bearcat factory).

This *isn't* a CGI scene, though, it's a composite shot with live actors... so there's even less of a chance that it exists in some secret high res variant (this was the same time they were doing Star Trek: The Next Generation--on film--which is now proving impossibly expensive to release in HD because all the SFX composite work was done on video).

But this is WC3 we're talking about: as I recall, the live action was filmed on VHS - 35mm film wasn't used until WC4. The CG sequences would have taken a big chunk of time to render too, I doubt they would have done it with any great deal more resolution than the final product delivered on CDs.

Video, not VHS--VHS is a consumer home video standard (the 'H' stands for home, even). I don't know enough about the history of video tape, but my guess is it was recorded on something like Betacam SP and then composited at 640x480.

It may be my imagination, or the difference in camera angle/resolution/lighting/etc, but the figure on the right doesn’t look big enough to be John Rhys-Davis. My guess is that this is a 'proof of concept' image of some sort, or something similar, with stand-ins in place of the actors.

That's a very good point. Actually, I believe Joe Garrity has a 16mm film reel of exactly this test footage... maybe he can pull it out and see if it matches the figures in this update (there's also some test footage hidden on the SWC 3DO disc for some reason).

Oh, hey, and has anyone noticed that I had the wrong ship name in the original update? You should certainly point that out over and over. :)
 
Also, the Wing Commander 3 footage in the console games is lower resolution than the PC version, and the PC version is heavily compressed.
Eh? The PlayStation/3DO movies are at least the same resolution of the PC version, if not higher.

Video, not VHS--VHS is a consumer home video standard (the 'H' stands for home, even).
I stand corrected. I knew it was some sort of video, just that it wasn't the 35 mm film standard used for cinematic features.

Oh, hey, and has anyone noticed that I had the wrong ship name in the original update? You should certainly point that out over and over.
Why, yes, I believe we did...
 
I guess my question is this - is the original video footage of Hamill and Rhys-Davis on the greenscreen set available seperate from the finished or composited shots?
 
I was just about to say that Paladin looked shorter in the "original" image, then I saw Benjamins post
 
Depending on the video format used, it could be in a higher resolution than VHS, there was an MPEG based video standard used for professional production and broadcast media. Unfortunately I don't know all the details of it. The university I was studying at around 2003 still had the gear lying around the place because they hadn't migrated to a modern High definition, hard drive/flash memory based system yet. It probably fits somewhere between VHS and DVD in terms of quality. I believe the files were compressed into either MPEG 1 or 2 video format. Very interesting that the picture exists, I'd love to know if the art assets for WC3's CG scenes could be rendered out in a higher resolution even if the art files themselves can't be distributed. Would make for some wonderful high resolution wall art especially the Excalibur fighter.
 
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