Is it always bugs?

U

Unforgiven

Spaceman
Today I spoke to a friend who doesn't know Wing Commander at all. Ie he'd never even heard of it, besides possible passing mentions of me in the past.
We were talking about some pros and cons to democracy and I mentioned Fleet Action, because it talks about the impossibility to maintain a war in a democracy, even if it's absolutely inevitable.
I told him the brief history of the Kilrathi war and I mentioned to him the Kilrathi were cat-like. His response was something along the lines of: 'They're not bugs? Cause it's usually bugs humanity fights.'
It may have something to do with Starship Troopers being on TV here last week, but still, his remark was almost creepy, if you think about the Nephilim, and the fact that he didn't know anything about WC...
 
Not so creepy. Since pulp novels from the early 20th Century, man has always wanted to pound space bugs! Why? Bugs are ugly, are seen as a nusance and they're not human so we don't have to feel bad about them.

I'm trying to remember what else in the way of bug warfare comes to mind, but all I can think of is Weird Science-Fantasy from EC Comics way-back-when.

As I'm sure a lot of people know, the novel for Starship Troopers was a heavy influence on James Cameron's "Aliens". Note the use of "Bug Hunt" by Bill Paxton. :)
 
because Bugs looks alien they are hard pointy sharp, what would you rather have crawling over your body some nice kitten furballs or loads of roaches creeping into your clothes crawling over your naked skin percing you with their sharp claws.

Pretty obvious why bugs make so good alien monsters than cozy kitten furballs
 
well fleet action was written by an ardent republican (which in my opinion comes pretty damned close to autocrats). and well look at the US during ww2 we maintained our democracy and went from a pathetic army of 20,000 men with outdated and poor equipment to an army of 12million with the best equipment in under 4 years. which is probably the single greatest mobilization ever esp. considering how we armed the british and the russians through lend lease (over 50% of all russian equip. was either made by the US or the raw materials came from the US or the factory came from the US), likewise the british maintained their democracy and they suffered much longer than us.
 
Ouch Ouch OUCH, LeHah!!!

I never ever even dreamed of Heinlein (author of Starship Troopers) being heavily influenced by James Cameron. As a matter of fact, I am certain it is not so.
First... the possible links between the MOVIES ST and Alien only start with Aliens, which is the second movie in the series!
Second... what about all the referenced to the creepiest part of it all: the totalitary and military reign of the world because democracy has failed? Where's that in Alien? Or in Aliens?
Third, Aliens are no bugs!

Now don't get me wrong, I love the Aliens movies (as well as the XTRO series, which for some weird reason are much less well-known) and I do like the Starship Troopers movie, although I think there are some completely unneccesary deviations from the book.

Bug warfare... why?? Chech how many people have one or another bug-fobia or huge dislike. If it's not spiders, it's cockroaches or wasps. Ever since we've been able to have a closer look at them we see tham as something fantastic, so much different from all other lifeforms on this planet... and there are so many of them around!

LOL a nice i-really-don't-wanna-know fact about bug warfare: statistically proven: in average, every one eats about three spiders in a lifetime while sleeping.

and wow, LeHah, Weird Science... now you know your old pulp magazines!!! One day when I am rich I'll hop over to the States to find all editions of Weird Science and Weird Tales Robert E. Howard ever published in.
 
actually its more like 17 spiders that you will have eaten in your sleep in a lifetime.

Your right though, bugs are fun to squish because many people are afraid of them and this makes it fun. WC1 was probably made before the "bug" craze began so theres a reason why its cats.
 
Originally posted by Supdon3
actually its more like 17 spiders that you will have eaten in your sleep in a lifetime.
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I thought that was a myth. I mean, there are plenty of other insects we could be eating at night besides spiders. I mean hell, all sorts of stuff.

On the topic of bugs, I had a Preying Mantis in my house today that was almost a foot tall. That thing scared the bejesus out of me. Then I openend the door and he kinda hoped out.
 
Originally posted by Supdon3
Your right though, bugs are fun to squish because many people are afraid of them and this makes it fun. WC1 was probably made before the "bug" craze began so theres a reason why its cats.
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I thought it more likely that seeing our approval of the big cats as perfect hunters and king of the jungle, they would be proving a worthy opponent and not just something stupid that needed to be squished. It's easier to imagine feline majestic than arachnid majestic.
Who would like to have bugs kick our ass in WC1,2 and 3 only to win by putting in a huge T-bomb? I mean, with the Kilrathi we were losing the war!
 
Originally posted by mpanty
Commander Keen usually fights Vorticons, more slime-like creatures than bugs... :)
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None the less you should certianly remember Keen squishing a fair few of those flying bugs under his pogo in keen4.
 
Originally posted by Ladiesman^

On the topic of bugs, I had a Preying Mantis in my house today that was almost a foot tall. That thing scared the bejesus out of me. Then I openend the door and he kinda hoped out.
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Then can you imagine one that's 6 feet tall?

I think it really depends upon the amount of 'alienness' we want the enemy to have (if such a word exists). Kilrathi are similar to lions/cats etc. Although they are not 'human' per se, the feline race shares a number of similarities with the human race. The Kilrathi are really just a human opponent (or semi-human). Yes, they look different, but we can understand and relate to their social behaviour and patterns. There is nothing the Kilrathi have done that is outside the bounds of what humans have done at various points in our history (except space travel ... well, you know what I mean).

To get something that appears truly 'alien', you need to base your race on something that does not relate to 'human' behavior and social patterns. Insects are probably the easiest model to use, since they are very different from humans in their behavior, appearance, etc. Add in the fact that most people have an pre-formed fear of bugs and you have a ready made 'alien' race.

Basically, they're just pandering to what we already know. It's easy to picture large cats as a clan-based, honorable society. Can you imagine the Kilrathi and Nephilm swapping roles ... a hive-mind swarm of cats, and a clan of bugs? It doesn't really work, although it would be interesting to try.
 
Originally posted by Stormbird
Ouch Ouch OUCH, LeHah!!!

I never ever even dreamed of Heinlein (author of Starship Troopers) being heavily influenced by James Cameron. As a matter of fact, I am certain it is not so.
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Well, it's true, sorry to burst your bubble. Realize the repeated comparison of the "Xenomorphs" in Alien and insects, specificly Ants. The Queen, the Hive Mind, The Drones, the Egg Laying. This was introduced from Heinlien's novel "Starship Troopers". The politcal aspects aside, Cameron & Screenwriters used it since they needed a jumping off point.

Care of the IMDB: "The preparation for the actors playing Colonial Marines included two weeks' training with the S.A.S. (Special Air Service, Britain's elite anti-terrorist force) and reading Robert Heinlein's novel "Starship Troopers" novel. Michael Biehn missed the training, as he was a last-minute replacement."

Admittedly, the IMDB is not always the most honest source, but its the best I can do on short notice, ok?

First... the possible links between the MOVIES ST and Alien only start with Aliens, which is the second movie in the series!
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First off, Cameron used Heinliens book, which was written in the 1960s(?), as a jumping off point for his screen treatment. Note: Marines, Landing Ships, Comparing the Enemy to "Bugs" and specificly "Ants".

Second... what about all the referenced to the creepiest part of it all: the totalitary and military reign of the world because democracy has failed? Where's that in Alien? Or in Aliens?
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It's not as apparent in the Alien series but it's there. Note that everyone works for a company, not a government. There was an exception in William Gibson's original script to Alien 3, where Bishop, Ripley and Newt are picked up by a Russian Task Force and brought to a Russian Space Station.

Third, Aliens are no bugs!
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Well, you can't really prove it, now can you? :) In actuallity, in Aliens, they discuss how the Species works, talking of a Hive Mind, Drones and the Queen. The "hiarchy", if you will, is based after Ants, as was Starship Troopers, which was sadly manifested in an ultra shitty movie.

and wow, LeHah, Weird Science... now you know your old pulp magazines!!! One day when I am rich I'll hop over to the States to find all editions of Weird Science and Weird Tales Robert E. Howard ever published in. [/B]
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You can go to a good comic book store and find reprints of those EC Comics from the mid-1990s. They're about $3 a pop, but some are SOOOOOO well worth it, esp seeing Al Williamson back in form. And some of the stories rival the best of The Twilight Zone. :)
 
Woooops!

LOL LeHah, is all this great posting we did based on a misunderstanding? If I read your last posting right, you agree that Cameron used the book written by Heinlein as a jumping off point. Meaning Heinlein influenced Cameron and not the other way around. re-reading the posts I admit guilt and flawy reading, as you wrote

the novel for Starship Troopers was a heavy influence on James Cameron's "Aliens".

that's what you get for burning the midnight oil, I guess, and English not being your native language

Anyway, luckily you didn't burst my bubble <grin> and Heinlein still rules.

Yet... calling Starship Troopers an ultra shitty movie??? Hmmmm. Well, an ancient roman guy once said "de gustibus non est deliberandem". But it's too nice to resist! Apart from some unneccesary but small changes from the book, I call it a fair making. Even though the action is heavily emphasized, all the other aspects of the book are still present for the attentive spectator.

Book shops and comic books shops ohhhhh LeHah, don't make my mouth water... I'm a Robert E Howard collector and you don't know how hard it is to get by that stuff in the Netherlands.

And everybody, in a few weeks I'll be a better man... I just ordered the Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy online today.
 
Originally posted by Stormbird
Meaning Heinlein influenced Cameron and not the other way around
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Of course ! I think Heinlein wrote his book before Cameron made his movie...
"Join the mobile infantry and save the world !"; maybe they said that too to the guys who fought on Repleetah...
 
"Bugs". I don't realy see the nephilins as Bugs. I thought so, but only until I saw one upclose in the infamous "Blair last scene". Don't beat me up, that's just an opinion. To me, the perfect alien enemy would be reptilian. Just imagine how the world would be if that giant meteor didn't crash into earth a couple of million years back. I'm sure reptiles would be the dominant species right now. The alien in Predator is a good example.
 
Apparently us humans like to call everything that has an exoskeleton and remotely resembles any form of insect a bug.
And besides that, the Nephilim really 'bug me'! :D
 
to most people, anything with more than 4 legs, and is 'creepy' nad 'crawley', it s a 'bug'. I just step on them!
 
Originally posted by Dekkar

Nonetheless you should certainly remember Keen squishing a fair few of those flying bugs under his pogo in Keen4.
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Right! I hated those!! They were invulnerable until the landed on the floor...
But then how satisfying that squishing sound was, huh? :D
 
Re: Woooops!

Yes, Heinlien rocks. :)

The only things about the Starship Trooper movie that were good was Michael Ironside and Basil Poledouris's score. That's about it to me.

Robert E Howard stuff is hard enough to find in the States as it is. Marvel Comics use to put out the "Oversized" editions of The Savage Sword of Conan from the early 1980s until about 1992 or 1993. Some of them are utterly fantastic, others near crap.

I'd like to point you into the direction of Bud Plant's Comic Art Catalouge. Recently, their newest headliner is Howard's Bran Mak Morn and this book. Good luck.

BTW, grab the newest release of Conan the Barbarian on DVD. John Milius's commentary is wonderful, as is the production drawings.
 
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