Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Christ people, I'm bored, not dead.
I don't think so -- the Prophecy map says that Ghorah Khar and company went back to being Kilrathi after the war... their allying with the Confederation during the war was simply a marriage of convenience rather than a genuine support for Terran ideals (which is to say, disagreeing with the Empire doesn't equal agreeing with the Confederation).
It is, however *easy*. We've seen WC1 ships in the WC3 timeline and vice-versa in a number of settings... and there's no inherent problem in this.
Yes, they can. For instance, someone can point out that Forstchen didn't write any of the books about Blair (save for, arguably, an offhand reference to WC2's player character in End Run). For Heart of the Tiger and The Price of Freedom he wrote the outline (based on the games scripts!), which were turned into novels by two other authors (Andrew Keith and Ben Ohlander for HotT and TPoF, respectively). (False Colors, though not based on a game, was also written by Keith based on an outline by Forstchen).
They could also point out that your dislike (hatred?) of the mans "ideology" is blinding you to any objective thinking as to how or why the stories are part of the Wing Commander novel -- and this could certainly be supported by the fact that you've complained about his writing style in two (three?) books he didn't write.
Your mistake is assuming that we don't see it the same way. I think it has a place in the WCU, but I won't argue that it was a great movie... or that the Rapiers aren't fugly.
I think the current explanation of the Iason situation is quite well-done and not insulting to anyones intelligence.
... but the Jalthi looks just like the Salthi, only green!
In all seriousness, they *did* remake WC1 in an engine capable of asymmetry... and it didn't contain any. I really don't see the complaint, though -- preferring asymmetry doesn't make all ships asymetrical.
For the things being argued right now, I completely disagree -- any interview with either Roberts of Forstchen where they discuss the basis of the Wing Commander story involves them pointing out that it's the Pacific War theater of World War II in space. From Wing Commander 1 on, the Kilrathi were the Japanese in space... Forstchen took Roberts' concept (albeit a farily obvious one) and ran with it. Hell, think about this: in 1998 Forstchen and Roberts both wrote separate prequels to the Kilrathi War... and they *both* started with Pearl Harbor in Space. Great minds think alike!
Well, obviously, he can't contribute anything to the Wing Commander universe if you didn't like a twenty (plus?) year old book! (Ice Prophet, IIRC, not Prophet of Ice). Given the apparent requirement that every book someones ever written must be excellent for them to be a good writer, how many good writers are there in your mind?
Wing Commander 1 wasn't very good -- after all, Chris Roberts did Bad Blood (no, don't try and tell me it's an overlooked classic. It's not.)!
Forstchen has some bad books (1945, his Star Trek novel)... he has some passable books (the Ice Prophet stuff -- I didn't really like it, but a bunch of people do)... and he has some great stuff. Wing Commander certainly isn't even his best. His 'Lost Regiment' series is one of the more famous military sci-fi sagas, and his Magic: The Gathering book would be a contender for fantasy classic if it weren't tied to a license. IMO, his greatest series (for which he seems to have gotten little to no credit) was the Star Voyager Academy stuff... two very basic juvenile novels followed by a very serious twist.
But, of course, he wrote 'Ice Prophet', so it all has to be awful.
If you believe this, you're fooling yourself. The Wing Commander games (and the books! and the movie!) have cheap obvious science fiction plots with almost no theme or character development to speak of. Putting Mark Hamill in a jump suit does not intelligent cinema make. Wing Commander, in all its iterations, is pulp science fiction of the highest order.
No, you're just seeing what you want to see. If WC3's message is "racial" then why did Melek surrender? And if it's horribly ignoring human faults, why does the Victory crew spend the game (or book) assuming that the traitor is one of the human characters? Hobbes is the traitor because it's the biggest shock they could get away with -- it's like killing Spock... there's nothing wrong with it plot-wise, but it's going to surprise and upset people. And that's what they were going for.
On another point, if there are Kilrathi Planets in Confed then does that mean there are Kilrathi in the TCN.
I don't think so -- the Prophecy map says that Ghorah Khar and company went back to being Kilrathi after the war... their allying with the Confederation during the war was simply a marriage of convenience rather than a genuine support for Terran ideals (which is to say, disagreeing with the Empire doesn't equal agreeing with the Confederation).
It is always interesting to compare how the ship design changed radically due to the game engine technology advancement. I do not try to explain it inside the universe, I do not think it is even necessary.
It is, however *easy*. We've seen WC1 ships in the WC3 timeline and vice-versa in a number of settings... and there's no inherent problem in this.
I do not like Forstchen's style, ideology (which he fills the books with) nor his choices for the series' plot. I do not agree with the way he portrays Tolwyn or Blair. I don't think he's even close to being a good writer. I'd rather someone else wrote those books. And I am entitled to those opinions and no one can debase me for that.
Yes, they can. For instance, someone can point out that Forstchen didn't write any of the books about Blair (save for, arguably, an offhand reference to WC2's player character in End Run). For Heart of the Tiger and The Price of Freedom he wrote the outline (based on the games scripts!), which were turned into novels by two other authors (Andrew Keith and Ben Ohlander for HotT and TPoF, respectively). (False Colors, though not based on a game, was also written by Keith based on an outline by Forstchen).
They could also point out that your dislike (hatred?) of the mans "ideology" is blinding you to any objective thinking as to how or why the stories are part of the Wing Commander novel -- and this could certainly be supported by the fact that you've complained about his writing style in two (three?) books he didn't write.
For instance, personally, as someone who's interested in literature and cinema as arts, I see the movie as really weak, regardless of agreeing (or not) with its place in the WCU. I also think those rapiers are REALLY ugly...
Your mistake is assuming that we don't see it the same way. I think it has a place in the WCU, but I won't argue that it was a great movie... or that the Rapiers aren't fugly.
It's far more foolish to think element can be made to fit. They either fit, or don't. Just like the TCS Iason and the CD Iason. You can be smart and treat both as different events.
I think the current explanation of the Iason situation is quite well-done and not insulting to anyones intelligence.
Like the Kilrathi, who began liking asymmetric ships and structures on WC3. If someone were to remake WC1/2 it would be cool to have some asymmetrical graltha. It would be impossible to do this on WC1 due to the whole sprite engine. Except, perhaps, for the Jalthi, which has asymmetrical guns...
... but the Jalthi looks just like the Salthi, only green!
In all seriousness, they *did* remake WC1 in an engine capable of asymmetry... and it didn't contain any. I really don't see the complaint, though -- preferring asymmetry doesn't make all ships asymetrical.
Chris Roberts and team didn't have the kilrathi as well developed on WC1 as they did in subsequent games... Forstchen viewed both the Kilrathi and the heroes of the confederation in a way that was different form the way the people who wrote tha games did. He even changed the tech...
For the things being argued right now, I completely disagree -- any interview with either Roberts of Forstchen where they discuss the basis of the Wing Commander story involves them pointing out that it's the Pacific War theater of World War II in space. From Wing Commander 1 on, the Kilrathi were the Japanese in space... Forstchen took Roberts' concept (albeit a farily obvious one) and ran with it. Hell, think about this: in 1998 Forstchen and Roberts both wrote separate prequels to the Kilrathi War... and they *both* started with Pearl Harbor in Space. Great minds think alike!
It's a fictional universe, worked on by many different people. Obviously, there are just as many diverse views. And it's not even particularly very well written fiction. Forstchen is a VERY limited writter. His "Prophet of Ice" series of books are a shameless rip-off of Dune. Only with ice instead of sand. He's very heavy handed, his weird far right-wing ideology permeates his writting far too much and he's quite repetitive.
Well, obviously, he can't contribute anything to the Wing Commander universe if you didn't like a twenty (plus?) year old book! (Ice Prophet, IIRC, not Prophet of Ice). Given the apparent requirement that every book someones ever written must be excellent for them to be a good writer, how many good writers are there in your mind?
Wing Commander 1 wasn't very good -- after all, Chris Roberts did Bad Blood (no, don't try and tell me it's an overlooked classic. It's not.)!
Forstchen has some bad books (1945, his Star Trek novel)... he has some passable books (the Ice Prophet stuff -- I didn't really like it, but a bunch of people do)... and he has some great stuff. Wing Commander certainly isn't even his best. His 'Lost Regiment' series is one of the more famous military sci-fi sagas, and his Magic: The Gathering book would be a contender for fantasy classic if it weren't tied to a license. IMO, his greatest series (for which he seems to have gotten little to no credit) was the Star Voyager Academy stuff... two very basic juvenile novels followed by a very serious twist.
But, of course, he wrote 'Ice Prophet', so it all has to be awful.
From an artistic point of view, the games are definitely the best works in the WC universe, particularly 3 and 4. it's th pinnacle of WC fiction. you have good underlying themes, decent character development, inteligent plot solutions. The movie is bad and the books are so-so.
If you believe this, you're fooling yourself. The Wing Commander games (and the books! and the movie!) have cheap obvious science fiction plots with almost no theme or character development to speak of. Putting Mark Hamill in a jump suit does not intelligent cinema make. Wing Commander, in all its iterations, is pulp science fiction of the highest order.
On WC3, yes. Not so much on WC1 and WC2. Take Ghora Khar, for example. The Kilrathi on WC3 are very different than the ones from the previous games. That could be explained because it was a different phase of the war.
On WC2, it was Terran Confederation vs Empire of Kilrath. There were Kilrathi citizens on Confed, and humans fighting for the Kirlathi - the mandarins. On WC3, it was a racial thing: Humans vs Kilrathi. Hence, Hobbes didn't fit the equation...
No, you're just seeing what you want to see. If WC3's message is "racial" then why did Melek surrender? And if it's horribly ignoring human faults, why does the Victory crew spend the game (or book) assuming that the traitor is one of the human characters? Hobbes is the traitor because it's the biggest shock they could get away with -- it's like killing Spock... there's nothing wrong with it plot-wise, but it's going to surprise and upset people. And that's what they were going for.