hobbes and his character arch

[Jdawg]

I know I make a lot of threads and I hope I dont bother anybody with them, but since I just beat wc4, wc3, and wc2 and expansions I have been thinking about hobbes and how his character arch could have made other character archs make more sense at least to me. This is just my opinion, and I still love the original idea and story, but I like this idea too.

lets say hobbes never was a top secret spy, and he did actually betray the empire, to fight for confed, I think that would off the bat make more sense and show that just bc you are fighting an enemy its not all black and white, and you can have some similarities with your foe. Now you could have kept 95 percent of wc3 the same, but instead of hobbes being a spy, lets say thrakhath kidnapped hobbes family and is threatening hobbes to kill them unless he feeds the kilrathi information on confed plans, so he does. the game still plays out the same way and the behemoth is destroyed, but when you go after hobbes, he tells you why he did it and you can choose rather or not to believe him and help him, (in my universe the cannon would be he is telling the truth and you have a mission where you help rescue his family, it could be they are on a transport and you help hobbes take down the protection wing and free them.) after that mission hobbes returns with you to the victory to face charges, and eventually he is executed for treason. So how does this help with other character arcs. it would help with hobbes arc by continuing his better storyline from wc2. it could also help the blair, and tolwyn's relationship angle. bc of course tolwyn would semi blame you for the behemoth for being destroyed and siding with hobbes and he might even think you were in on it just to help hobbes, which would in turn help the plausibility of why he hates blair so much by wc4 and does not trust him, and it would also give depth to why tolwyn eventually goes mad and is chasing shadows by wc4. it would also help to make thrakhath to be even more the villain than he already was, bc not only does he kill blairs love interest aka angel but he cost blair a dear friend in hobbes

what do yall think just an idea

 

[Dundradal]

You should read Freedom Flight. It provides quite a bit of background on Hobbes and his defection.

 

[capi3101]

Folks around here will tell you that you can't pick and choose the canon. That's hogwash in most instances since the notion of canonicity in sci-fi is completely subjective in the first place, but in this case I think you'd have a tough time selling the idea. Which is a damn shame, because were it not established in Freedom Flight that Ralgha's family was all killed in a Confederation raid, your idea would work beautifully (ain't nothing better for drama than a good moral dilemma).

What always bothered me about the whole Hobbes as a traitor thing was that it completely dicks up his relationship with Downton in WC2. I mean, if he reaaaaallly had that close of a relationship with Baldwin when Baldwin was just a youth (on Ghorah Khar, no less), Ralgha would've had to have been pretty damn young when he got his personality overlay.

On the other hand, Hobbes as traitor gives a whole new nuance to Thrakhath attending Jakhai's interrogation in Freedom Flight. In WCRPG, I interpreted Thrakhath's personal attendance as a check to ensure that the overlay was holding as it should.

 

[Jdawg]

Folks around here will tell you that you can't pick and choose the canon. That's hogwash in most instances since the notion of canonicity in sci-fi is completely subjective in the first place, but in this case I think you'd have a tough time selling the idea. Which is a damn shame, because were it not established in Freedom Flight that Ralgha's family was all killed in a Confederation raid, your idea would work beautifully (ain't nothing better for drama than a good moral dilemma).

What always bothered me about the whole Hobbes as a traitor thing was that it completely dicks up his relationship with Downton in WC2. I mean, if he reaaaaallly had that close of a relationship with Baldwin when Baldwin was just a youth (on Ghorah Khar, no less), Ralgha would've had to have been pretty damn young when he got his personality overlay.

On the other hand, Hobbes as traitor gives a whole new nuance to Thrakhath attending Jakhai's interrogation in Freedom Flight. In WCRPG, I interpreted Thrakhath's personal attendance as a check to ensure that the overlay was holding as it should.

I think it was too easy to pin hobbes as a traitor and dick up his great story from wc2 and seemed like an easy cop out bc roberts didnt like the kilrathi puppets

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Folks around here will tell you that you can't pick and choose the canon. That's hogwash in most instances since the notion of canonicity in sci-fi is completely subjective in the first place, but in this case I think you'd have a tough time selling the idea.

I think the argument is that we're not the ones who get to decide that. Sure, everybody can say "that's MY canon!" and cross out all the things they don't like... but that means nothing to whoever is writing the next canonical story.

What always bothered me about the whole Hobbes as a traitor thing was that it completely dicks up his relationship with Downton in WC2. I mean, if he reaaaaallly had that close of a relationship with Baldwin when Baldwin was just a youth (on Ghorah Khar, no less), Ralgha would've had to have been pretty damn young when he got his personality overlay.

The oddest thing about Downtown is that he isn't mentioned ANYWHERE in Freedom Flight. They're written by the same person at the same time and Hobbes' origin is significantly different (but still involves human slaves and Ghorah Khar and betraying the Empire...)

Personally, I think the whole thing makes the traitor backstory more interesting. Why does Prince Thrakhath suddenly appear to free him when accused of treason in Freedom Flight? Because he's Thrakhath's sleeper agent!

So then what's the story with Downtown and/or Hassa. Are they also agents? Was the rebellion on Ghorah Khar planned by Thrakhath? You could tell any number of stories here. (One theory - the whole thing WAS engineered by Thrakhath, who realized that if the war ended in 2656 then he wouldn't united the clans under him and he wouldn't ascend to the throne... another is that Thrakhath is incompetant and that his sleeper agent plan actually cost the Empire dearly. They're both interesting takes! And, frankly, a little bit more interesting than Wing Commander II's version, which was that Hobbes suddenly became a furry human and took on our particular morals about leadership and slavery. "I gave up everything TO SAVE A HUMAN CHILD" is pretty glurgey... but if it's a psy-ops story planted by the Kilrathi because of how effective it'd be... cool!)

I think it was too easy to pin hobbes as a traitor and dick up his great story from wc2 and seemed like an easy cop out bc roberts didnt like the kilrathi puppets

This falls into the old linear time requirement - Wing Commander III wasn't written in response to the muppets... the muppets were created because the Wing Commander III script called for them. (That said, I have never heard anything to indicate that Chris hated the WC3 animatronics. Certainly everyone was disappointed with the WC4 and WCM versions... but the WC3 cats end up looking pretty good.)

 

[Jdawg]

I think the argument is that we're not the ones who get to decide that. Sure, everybody can say "that's MY canon!" and cross out all the things they don't like... but that means nothing to whoever is writing the next canonical story.



The oddest thing about Downtown is that he isn't mentioned ANYWHERE in Freedom Flight. They're written by the same person at the same time and Hobbes' origin is significantly different (but still involves human slaves and Ghorah Khar and betraying the Empire...)

Personally, I think the whole thing makes the traitor backstory more interesting. Why does Prince Thrakhath suddenly appear to free him when accused of treason in Freedom Flight? Because he's Thrakhath's sleeper agent!

So then what's the story with Downtown and/or Hassa. Are they also agents? Was the rebellion on Ghorah Khar planned by Thrakhath? You could tell any number of stories here. (One theory - the whole thing WAS engineered by Thrakhath, who realized that if the war ended in 2656 then he wouldn't united the clans under him and he wouldn't ascend to the throne... another is that Thrakhath is incompetant and that his sleeper agent plan actually cost the Empire dearly. They're both interesting takes! And, frankly, a little bit more interesting than Wing Commander II's version, which was that Hobbes suddenly became a furry human and took on our particular morals about leadership and slavery. "I gave up everything TO SAVE A HUMAN CHILD" is pretty glurgey... but if it's a psy-ops story planted by the Kilrathi because of how effective it'd be... cool!)



This falls into the old linear time requirement - Wing Commander III wasn't written in response to the muppets... the muppets were created because the Wing Commander III script called for them. (That said, I have never heard anything to indicate that Chris hated the WC3 animatronics. Certainly everyone was disappointed with the WC4 and WCM versions... but the WC3 cats end up looking pretty good.)

I swear I read an article with chris saying he was never happy with how the kilrathi looked period. as far as hobbes I loved his story in wc2 it put a different face on an enemy that before that was just a typical kill the baddies villain. the novels also helped expand the universe. and it seemed the deep sleeper agent angle is one we have seen so many time in so many different games, and movies, that it did nothing for me. I think it would have been far more interesting to give hobbes a moral decision than just that angle since wing commander is all about choice

 

[Jdawg]

by the way I still love the story of the wing commander universe and think overall its pretty much perfect. all im saying is if I was outlining the script for wc3 that is the one change I would have made.

ps I love the muppets from wc3, they looked great although hobbes was the weakest looking, but thrakhath was badass looking

 

[sgupta]

This arc is one of the most visceral experiences I've had in gaming. Wing Commander III was my very first Wing Commander, and Hobbes was always my choice as Wingman. It literally broke my heart when he defected. So I don't think I'd change it, even though part of me of course will always hate it. =oP I remember after I'd played through watching my friend play through, knowing what I knew was to come, and seeing him have much the same reaction I did. Of all my memories of any game, that's probably the one that made the biggest impact to me. And that's without all the WC1/WC2 backstory as well, which only added to, well, everything.

And I really loved the puppets in WC3. I find them so much better than the WC movie Kilrathi.

 

[quaker2k8]

Actually, WC3 was my first WC game, too. My then best friend made me play it. After a few days, he asked me how far through I already was. Careful not to spoil anything he inquired whether the "thing with Hobbes" had already happened. - I hadn' progressed that far yet, but called it right away. My answer was something like "you mean him betraying the humans, killing some then running away? No that hasn't happened yet."

So, it's long ago, but his treason wasn't too much of a surprise, at least for someone who didn't know WC2 when beginning to play WC3. Dramatically, from the way WC3 was made, with all the whining about "you're my only friend, nobody trusts me...." in the beginning.... Well executed though.

 

[Jdawg]

Actually, WC3 was my first WC game, too. My then best friend made me play it. After a few days, he asked me how far through I already was. Careful not to spoil anything he inquired whether the "thing with Hobbes" had already happened. - I hadn' progressed that far yet, but called it right away. My answer was something like "you mean him betraying the humans, killing some then running away? No that hasn't happened yet."

So, it's long ago, but his treason wasn't too much of a surprise, at least for someone who didn't know WC2 when beginning to play WC3. Dramatically, from the way WC3 was made, with all the whining about "you're my only friend, nobody trusts me...." in the beginning.... Well executed though.

see quaker and that was my problem with how they did hobbes in wc3. hobbes from wc2 was prob the most fully developed and realized character in wc2, above blair, angel, and jazz. he was in 80 percent of the cutscenes and So1 was largely about him. they could have taken his character anywhere, its just seems strange to me that they spent all this time building up his character in wc2, only to say it was all fake and just a personality overlay in wc3. and like you pointed out it was so obvious who the traitor was, that your friend didnt even have to tell you.

 

[Ijuin]

My preference would be for the personality overlay to have been reversed--that the Hobbes that we know be the "real" personality and the fanatically-loyal-to-Thrakhath side be the overlaid personality that was triggered by the "Heart of the Tiger" phrase. It would not only let Hobbes stay the character that we loved, but it would also add to his tragedy by having him literally brainwashed into betraying his companions for Thrakhath.

 

[AD]

I swear I read an article with chris saying he was never happy with how the kilrathi looked period.

The WC3 Kilrathi have the look mostly down, at least in the face. The faces are a pretty good representation of the WC2 kilrathi down to even the artificial eye on the emperor, and the various facial features on Thrakhath. But they're still muppets. Theyire mouths... are somewhat expressive but still move in that muppetish way when they talk. If you look at their bodies in any aspect other than their faces, they're definitely lacking. Thrakhath wears long robes so his boddy is... hidden but if you look closely in the few shots where Hobbes is shown in full, he has a pretty scrawny body for the size of his head. The Kilrathi never really... walk anywhere much (with the exception of one scene in the rec room with Hobbes). However any Kilrathi that's not Thrakhath, The emperor, Melek, or Hobbes (honestly there's not many I guess... a few guards in the background of a few shots) look like planet of the apes rejects.

Basically they worked *with* the costume limitations in WC3 though. The quote from Chris Roberts doesn't say he hated them though. Basically it says he was never completely happy with the way they looked in their live-action iterations. You'll see it in articles where he's asked about why they redesigned the Kilrathi for the movie. The reality is that with the demands the movie placed on the Kilrathi costumes, the WC3/4 costumes just would not have worked at all. The physical demands of the action (which mostly went unused in the theatrical cut anyway) demanded much more that was possible from the WC3 costumes. As well, the WC3 costumes look pretty great in 320x160 resolution, and very much less so on 35mm film (whose equivalent resolution would be somewhere closer to 4k projected). So there's a lot more going on with the decision to move away from muppets than that CR didn't like them. (The irony is that the WC movie cats really were just another more complicated version of the WC3 muppets in the end, And everyone hated them).

 

[Oggy]

To be honest, on the first playthrough of WCIII on the PC, I'd assumed that Hobbes couldn't face the destruction of Kilrah and had gone rogue to prevent that; he'd allied himself with humanity and they were going to destroy his homeworld! he had to do something!

It was only later I found out about the whole sleeper agent story arc,

 

[Mekt-Hakkikt]

I am not a big fan of the personality overlay story as well - it made the fond memories of Hobbes from WC2 (and partly SM2, though you don't see him) bitter and false. Also Hobbes was the only character in WC3 that seemed to respect you at all and he was a good friend. On the other hand that way his treachery was all the more heart breaking to me. I never ever considered siding with Cobra or Rollins, always with Hobbes - and then all those assholes were right! I hated it and was really sad! Especially beacuse WC3 rally went over the top in my eyes in describing the Kilrathi as primitve barbarians - and the only decent Kilratahi turns out to be a construct!

To be honest, on the first playthrough of WCIII on the PC, I'd assumed that Hobbes couldn't face the destruction of Kilrah and had gone rogue to prevent that; he'd allied himself with humanity and they were going to destroy his homeworld! he had to do something!

It was only later I found out about the whole sleeper agent story arc,

Exactly the same for me and it would have made for a much better story (for me at least). It would have meant that Hobbes really was your friend but even then as a friend he could not watch his homeworld, the cultural heritage of his race and billions of his people, including children etc. being killed. I could absolutely understand that and it would have made it all the more tragic. Much better than "Harhar, I was evil all along."

 

[Mace]

I wanted Cobra to be the traitor...

 

[Mace]

I am not a big fan of the personality overlay story as well - it made the fond memories of Hobbes from WC2 (and partly SM2, though you don't see him) bitter and false. Also Hobbes was the only character in WC3 that seemed to respect you at all and he was a good friend. On the other hand that way his treachery was all the more heart breaking to me. "

Even before the "message" (IIRC), Hobbes had a scene with Blair where he "used to raid these planets", and clearly felt concerned.. I would understand him opposing genocide from the humans on the Kilrathi, and re-defecting. It was only this site that gave me the footage of his true intentions, and the story arch..

I tried to replay the game back in the day so that Cobra would be the traitor, or Rollins, and not him. This was before common unlimited internet access.

 

[Jdawg]

I wanted Cobra to be the traitor...

I actually liked the cobra character, and the actress, there could have been done more with her character too. I wish flash was the traitor I hate that jackass lol

 

[Bandit LOAF]

It doesn't sound like that's a /better story/... it sounds like it's something that makes you more comfortable.

In all but how the (possibly unnecessary) 'explanation' is presented to you, Wing Commander III is written very, very well. A good story isn't one that makes you feel warm and fuzzy at the end. The Hobbes plot is really interesting because it's using the narrative to control the player's actions. It's very cool: the game gives you the total choice to side with Rollins and Cobra over and over... but (as the writers knew) no one would ever do that. So instead of just having a "oh my, it was him!" (as in... every other traitor story) your reaction is "oh my God, I FAILED WHEN I COULD HAVE DONE SOMETHING." And that's really, really cool storytelling... and the rare type that can only exist with an 'interactive movie.'

(I also prefer the take on the Kilrathi. 'Oh, Hobbes is so nice!' is exactly why Wing Commander 2 had a problem. 'Hey, here's a big fuzzy pal for you! He's just like a (really really nice) human, but he's a fuzzy fuzzy tiger! And he hates the Emperor and slavery and he's wise and always has good advice and every paycheck he puts money into savings. The Kilrathi being aliens who have their own completely alien motivations is more interesting in the long term. Now, a story where you come to understand a Kilrathi DESPITE that fact is interesting. But Hobbes in Wing Commander II was always a little too easy.)

 

[Jdawg]

It doesn't sound like that's a /better story/... it sounds like it's something that makes you more comfortable.

In all but how the (possibly unnecessary) 'explanation' is presented to you, Wing Commander III is written very, very well. A good story isn't one that makes you feel warm and fuzzy at the end. The Hobbes plot is really interesting because it's using the narrative to control the player's actions. It's very cool: the game gives you the total choice to side with Rollins and Cobra over and over... but (as the writers knew) no one would ever do that. So instead of just having a "oh my, it was him!" (as in... every other traitor story) your reaction is "oh my God, I FAILED WHEN I COULD HAVE DONE SOMETHING." And that's really, really cool storytelling... and the rare type that can only exist with an 'interactive movie.'

(I also prefer the take on the Kilrathi. 'Oh, Hobbes is so nice!' is exactly why Wing Commander 2 had a problem. 'Hey, here's a big fuzzy pal for you! He's just like a (really really nice) human, but he's a fuzzy fuzzy tiger! And he hates the Emperor and slavery and he's wise and always has good advice and every paycheck he puts money into savings. The Kilrathi being aliens who have their own completely alien motivations is more interesting in the long term. Now, a story where you come to understand a Kilrathi DESPITE that fact is interesting. But Hobbes in Wing Commander II was always a little too easy.)

that is correct it does sound better to me that was the whole pt of this thread. I thought hobbes story in wc3 was sloppy and lazy, and it seems a lot of folks agree with me. kilrathi might be aliens but to assume they are all alike is wrong, just like assuming all people of a certain race are the same, or all animals of a species are the same, its just not true.

by the way if you go back to the original post of mine, I said hobbes is still a traitor and is executed for his crimes, not exactly warm and fuzzy is it.

and I understand you dont like hobbes of wc2 I can respect that, but it makes no sense to take all that time to develop him and spend so much time on his character to only say it was a lie. thats like in a tv show where all this crazy stuff happens, but at the end of the show its revealed that the main character was just dreaming. its a cop out to me.

 

[Maslas]

The Hobbes scenario had an impact to every and each one of us who played WC. But the feel of betrayal comes stronger to our emotions when it happens from someone we really care about. In that particular situation, a wave of misery falls upon Blair from situations like Hobbes, Angel, Cobra, Vaquero, the Behemoth failure, the upcoming earth invasion, that it will, eventually, lead him to blow up Kilrah with no remorse, at least at the moment.
The scenario was fine due to my opinion. As for Hobbes... I wouldn't let any alien race destroy earth although I had defected with them, I mean it's my home planet.

Just a thought