Hellcat V gripes

Ijuin said:
The WC3 Hellcat only had a 120 damage unit gun volley compared to the Arrow's 96, and only had 100 armor to the Arrow's 80, and 220 shields to the Arrow's 200. In comparison, you lost 20% of the speed and 1/3 of the agility, and you carried two fewer missiles. As a result, the Hellcat felt weaker to me than the Arrow.
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Well, that's 25% more firepower, 25% more armor, and 10% more shields, at the cost of 20% speed, and 33% maneuverability. Also, IIRC, the Arrow's hardpoints are limited to DF and HS missiles, while the Hellcat can mount any of the missiles. Those trades are actually very fair. It's really the Thunderbolt and the later introduction of the Excalibur that makes the Hellcat feel incredibly weak. I mean, for a tiny bit less speed and turning, the Thunderbolt gets a torpedo, a tailgun, much more shields, more armor, and more guns. And the Excalibur... well that baby just plain puts the Arrow and Hellcat to shame.
 
An important thing to remember when we consider the Hellcat--we're talking about it from the perspective of gameplay, but thinking about it from the perspective of a real life fighter.

In the game, if we choose an Arrow and then run into a Fralthi II and three or four corvettes, we get our ship shot to hell, restart the mission, and then take the Thunderbolt or Longbow instead. If we take the Thud or Longbow and get cut to shreds by swarms of nimble fighters, or end up lacking the critical speed to take down a crucial capship missile, we go back and take the arrow instead.

In real life there would be no do-overs, and pilots frequently would not know what they would be facing. This was the time for the Hellcat. True, it couldn't dance with the aces or intercept the capship missiles as well as an Arrow, and couldn't take down capships and bombers as easily as a heavier fighter, but it could do both in some capacity.

Also, I found the Hellcat the best fighter in WC3 (barring the Excalibur) for tangling with Vaktoths. The Arrow got cut up by their rear gun, or, if you were maneuvering to avoid that, did too little damage to peck away at their shields effectively. The Thunderbolt couldn't keep up with them. But the 'Cat could keep up, do decent damage, and didn't mind if it took a rear gun hit or two...
 
I think I remember reading somewhere that the Arrow could only mount "light" missiles while the 'Cat can mount any kind, but my memory from the game, at least WC3, is that you could put anything you wanted short of torps on the Arrow hardpoints. But I could be wrong there...
 
Farbourne said:
Also, I found the Hellcat the best fighter in WC3 (barring the Excalibur) for tangling with Vaktoths. The Arrow got cut up by their rear gun, or, if you were maneuvering to avoid that, did too little damage to peck away at their shields effectively. The Thunderbolt couldn't keep up with them. But the 'Cat could keep up, do decent damage, and didn't mind if it took a rear gun hit or two...
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The Thunderbolt was my fighter of choice (barring the Excalibur as well) to go against Vaktoth. You didn't need to keep up with them but instead effectively use your guns. I only used full guns when it was up close and personal and otherwise using the photon cannons to nail them from a distance.

The Thunderbolt is my favorite all purpose in the series. Granted the Morningstar carries more heavy weapons and better guns and the Sabre has even more weapons and a formidable gun loadout. The Tbolt reminded me of its original WW2 namesake. It shares the milk jug shape and its ability to absorb damage equals its namesake. The one torpedo wasn't much compared to the Morningstar and Sabre, but in WC3 it was sometimes all you need to make a bad situation a little more manageable.
 
Farbourne said:
I think I remember reading somewhere that the Arrow could only mount "light" missiles while the 'Cat can mount any kind, but my memory from the game, at least WC3, is that you could put anything you wanted short of torps on the Arrow hardpoints. But I could be wrong there...
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I'm pretty sure that the Arrow had four medium hardpoints and four light hardpoints. In any event, when I flew Arrows, I carried four IR and four HS missiles.
 
You could only use HS or IR missiles with the arrow. Which didn't matter much, since IR missiles were so good...

The best thing about the Arrow is the autoslide ability. It made the Arrow the best ship for taking out Paktahns and corvettes, barring the Excalibur.
 
And to me it looks like WC-IV Hellcat is a downgrade of the one used during the war. I tell you - I can't remember a WCIII situation Hellcat couldn't handle. My guess is that "bad" version of Hellcat was created purposedly - to make us see how bad the situation is. The most cheap fighters, the most "cheap" missions that could be handled by militia...

So, guys... Before telling that poor 'cat is bad - just try to remember how much good did that "bad" fighter do during the war.

P.S.
Still, I agree - WC-IV Hellcat is a coffin :) In some othe way than Logbow, but still a coffin.
 
MjavTheGray said:
And to me it looks like WC-IV Hellcat is a downgrade of the one used during the war. I tell you - I can't remember a WCIII situation Hellcat couldn't handle. My guess is that "bad" version of Hellcat was created purposedly - to make us see how bad the situation is.
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You. Must. Be. Joking. :D

I'm having trouble thinking of a reason why anyone would say that. Maybe you just dislike the Tyr missions.
 
Why would I dislike Tyr mission? We aren't supposed to like or dislike them, we're supposed to fulfil them, aren't we? ;)
And as for "downgrade" feeling, I assure you - it is no jest of mine. I do feel this way. WCIV Hellcat was pusposedly made weaker than WCIII'ish.

Has anyone read Harry Hladdik's "Price of ..." ?
I do agree with Harry's Blair - I would beg HQ for modern fighters too. :)
 
In real life there would be no do-overs, and pilots frequently would not know what they would be facing. This was the time for the Hellcat. True, it couldn't dance with the aces or intercept the capship missiles as well as an Arrow, and couldn't take down capships and bombers as easily as a heavier fighter, but it could do both in some capacity.
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Surviveability was a main reason I chose the Arrow. There were no 'do overs', but you might lose a battle but survive to win the war if it wasn't a victory critical mission. This is because an Arrow could escape any combat situation by afterburning to full speed, then autosliding, then turning around and shooting at any enemies that were keeping up with you.

This technique was also a way to run your opponents out of missiles and afterburners as they chased you. Then you could head back and mop them up after they're out and you're fully loaded. It could be seen as cheating, but it's also believable that the Kilrathi pilots would still chase you and fire missiles even if Wing Commander was 'real life' since they're such an aggressive race. So by doing this, even enemy Paks and Vaktoths were best suited to be desroyed by the Arrow.

The best thing about the Arrow is the autoslide ability. It made the Arrow the best ship for taking out Paktahns and corvettes, barring the Excalibur.
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I agree. The slide really boosted the Arrows value above the others. I did prefer the Thud over the Arrow in certain missions and never the Hellcat. If the Hellcat had slide capability, I may have used it fairly often. If the Hellcat had eight missiles AND autoslide, I might have used it even more that the Arrow in WC3. In WC4 where 1 missile=death, I STILL would've usually chosen the Arrow since speed is life.
 
MjavTheGray said:
Why would I dislike Tyr mission? We aren't supposed to like or dislike them, we're supposed to fulfil them, aren't we? ;)
And as for "downgrade" feeling, I assure you - it is no jest of mine. I do feel this way. WCIV Hellcat was pusposedly made weaker than WCIII'ish.

Has anyone read Harry Hladdik's "Price of ..." ?
I do agree with Harry's Blair - I would beg HQ for modern fighters too. :)
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Well, I guess your post shows how much playing experiences can differ... "Dislike" was a bad word. I meant something like "had too much trouble"... The WC4 Hellcat, objectively speaking, is much better than the WC3 Hellcat, but I guess the engine differences (one-hit missile kills and so on) can make you like the WC3 Hellcat better.
 
Sharpshooter said:
Well, I guess your post shows how much playing experiences can differ... "Dislike" was a bad word. I meant something like "had too much trouble"... The WC4 Hellcat, objectively speaking, is much better than the WC3 Hellcat, but I guess the engine differences (one-hit missile kills and so on) can make you like the WC3 Hellcat better.
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You know, I never really figured out what it is about the Hellcat V in WC4 that made me hate it even more. I always loathed the fighter, but WC4 pushed me over the top.

Also (its been so long since I've played 3 or 4) but isn't there a difference in main armorments?
 
The WC4 Hellcat felt weaker in gameplay terms mostly because you are fighting more powerful enemies--Banshees and Arrows instead of Darkets and Strakhas, Hellcats instead of Dralthis, Vindicators, Thunderbolts, and Excaliburs instead of Vaktoths.
 
I distinctly thought that the wc4 hellcat was a stable ship. Hell, you sure could take a severe beating FROM them in no time at all in WC4, unless you were on a low difficulty setting or had really nimble reflexes.

The guns weren't anything to sneeze at, and it had just enough speed and maneuverability to keep you in the fight. And, while it wasn't as durable as some other ships, it could still survive a few hits if you were lining up a critical shot.

It felt far more versatile than the WC3 version. But I suspect engine differences had some to do with it.
 
By the way... Having Hellcat in WCSO (replacing the Panther) shows that the old 'cat is not all that bad.
It still handles almost any situation (except the capship problems), and roleplaying a vet in WCSO was nice.

P.S.
Anyone has a Hornet model for WCSO? I'd love to try an old 'bee' against the bugs.
 
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