GOG Helps Preserve Gaming's Legacy (July 23, 2018)

The games industry is a notoriously shitty place to work. Neocore recently blew it up again by being retarded: https://kotaku.com/game-studios-joke-about-90-hour-work-weeks-did-not-go-o-1825427281 (Sorry about the source, the alternative was waypoint.) I have no idea what goes on with the Polish industry, but between what we know about the industry at large and Quarto actually being part of the Polish industry I'm inclined to believe what he says.
 
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@Quarto: I didn't leave a good impression? Really? First you made some accusations regarding CDPR without submitting any hard evidence and then you started insulting me. You are selfish and spoiled little brat and wannabe developer. You never had a real problem in your life. You think that people who are developers like you deserve some special treatment and the rest of us can die. I am sick of people like you.
Cool, thanks. Real maturity right there! And yes, if by "special treatment" you mean "able to leave your office at a normal time, and have a life and a family rather than crunching 18 hours a day and being told off for slackness when leaving the office at eight in the evening", then I'm certainly guilty as charged*. Yes, I would rather see CDPR ignore its fans, and treat its developers well. In fact, given the behaviour of some CDPR fans, I'm more than tempted to say the fans can just go to hell.


*Important disclaimer: this is undeniably how things have been at CDPR in the past. I am not making any claims about the present. Things have certainly improved to some extend, and likely are continuing to improve, but work being what it is, most people will not voice their opinions until after they have left.
 
@Quarto: You were offended because I didn't care about your problems. Since you are not any family to me or close friend why should I care about you? If I saw you dying on the street I would take you to the hospital and that's all. You can't expect more from me than that. Do you understand what I am trying to say? My problem with people like you is that you think that you are special in some way and that your problems are the most important thing in world. You are not the the only person who has to work overtime. If you don't like how they treat you in your company you can always quit and find better place to work like I did.

Where is that evidence about CDPR? Can you prove anything or it's just a hearsay?
 
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@Quarto: You were offended because I didn't care about your problems. Since you are not any family to me or close friend why should I care about you? If I saw you dying on the street I would take you to the hospital and that's all. You can't expect more from me than that. Do you understand what I am trying to say? My problem with people like you is that you think that you are special in some way and that your problems are the most important thing in world. You are not the the only person who has to work overtime. If you don't like how they treat you in your company you can always quit and find better place to work like I did.

Where is that evidence about CDPR? Can you prove anything or it's just a hearsay?

Not being able to empathize with other people is nothing to take pride in - even in these troubled times.

But even putting that to one side, it's utterly pointless. Such companies survive in-spite of their practices, not because of them. I've had programmers that insist on doing long hours, but they are always the ones that introduce bugs that others have to clean up, game development needs good design and a clear head. The continued prevalence of extreme overtime is nothing more than a sign of the immaturity of the industry; something you can identify with I dare say.
 
You do not need to care about the people making a game to know that the health of a team is important to longer term game development in a way that will impact you. It's like running a car in the red: you can win a race but you are damaging your engine and preventing yourself from using the car later. A toxic, harried team can make an exceptional game… but as Quarto says, because of how game development bonuses are structured, it can be very difficult to follow up on that success because you lose your top talent between projects.

Wing Commander IV is a good example of this: it's an amazing game that we all love… but the fact that Electronic Arts insisted on doing it for a Christmas 1995 release burned through the goodwill of an exceptionally skilled team. The project's superstars took their shipping bonuses and went to Digital Anvil and happily became direct competitors… and the IP never recovered.
 
@Pedro: I can empathize with @Quarto but I won't fight his battles. He is a grown up person and should be able to take care of himself.

@Bandit LOAF: I support developers by giving them my hard earned money so they can continue to make good games.
 
It's not a matter of the degree to which you do or do not support game developers; I'm saying that how a company treats its employees has an impact on YOUR future gaming. If a developer is taking care of its people then you can expect them to make many more great games... if it's burning through them to get to the end of one project without planning for the future then at best you'll get future games of an uneven quality (and at the very common worst, the sudden disappearance of a seemingly unimpeachable IP.)
 
It's not just Quarto, it's all developers. Everyone has one of those experiences, and as LOAF says they all hurt the industry.
My first job was in such a role, and it hurt my health, and I got out quickly. It hurt the health of colleagues even more, but perhaps more relevantly to you as a consumer some of the most talented people I met left the games industry entirely.

Every Friday they would go down to a local pub and I'd finally find someone relaxed enough to have a conversation with - and the reason was invariably that was their last night. They were going half way across the world to become a scuba-instructor or some such. I met more people leaving the games industry working there for two months than I have met in the 10 years since.

Sure they had made great games, but their people were either leaving and burning out which I guess explains why they were mass hiring graduates. They couldn't keep talent and I guess their reputation was finally preventing them from poaching it.
Fortunately when management changed so did that studio by all accounts.
Now that experience taught me what to look out for, and I've never had an experience like it since - but so many good people try and stick it out somewhere like that as a matter of pride until they are done with the industry entirely.
 
@Bandit LOAF: How companies treat their employees has almost zero impact to my gaming. Let me explain. Employees that are treated badly can always quit problematic companies and go to Kickstarter and start new IP. Best example is Chris Roberts who left Digital Anvil after MS bought it. He is making new Wing Commander now and earning a tons of money and has huge creative freedom. The only difference is that the game is no longer called Wing Commander but Squadron 42 and I can live with that little change.
 
@Pedro: I understand the problem but I don't understand what do you people want from me. If you make a good product I will give you the money for it. If you want me to sign some petition that will help you I can do that. I don't know what else could I do.
 
@Pedro: I understand the problem but I don't understand what do you people want from me. If you make a good product I will give you the money for it. If you want me to sign some petition that will help you I can do that. I don't know what else could I do.
All we want, really, is for you to stop claiming that a very troubled game developer is somehow "the best developer in the world". The methods they use to get results are bad methods. They are inefficient, and the results they attain are in spite of these methods, not because of them. No one is asking you to do anything, sign anything, or anything like that. No one is asking you to buy a particular game, or to boycott another game. I'm certainly not asking you to "fight my battles" - I've never asked for your sympathy, and I certainly don't need it (I choose my employers carefully, thank you very much).

There will always be companies that employ exploitative practices such as those used at various points in the past by EA and CDPR. It's not a problem anyone can actually solve. But when you proclaim that you don't care about this, and they're still the best developer in the world, you're simply being obtuse (not to say - stupid). The best developer in the world (if such a thing can even exist, given the diversity of games) doesn't only get good results, they also don't lose half their team along the way, and they don't destroy families in the process. CDPR is not the best developer in the world, regardless of what its fans may think. They make great games, but their practices are not great.

As for evidence, as I've already said a couple of times, these are things people usually talk about in private, over a beer. Complaining about your previous (or current!) employer in public is a surefire way to lose employability, so it's a rare bird that chooses to do that. I can give you a link to their Glassdoor page, where you will see some very mixed reviews of the company, including some exceedingly negative ones that talk about what I said. But why bother? I'm sure you'll just tell me that these are worthless because they're anonymous. Or maybe you'll give me the line CDPR used when addressing this issue, which is that it's just a few disgruntled former employees making noise. Or maybe you'll use their other argument - here it is, they posted it on Twitter. They argued here that you know, ambitious gamedevs need to "reinvent the wheel" sometimes (I shit you not - to describe their policies, they actually used the figure of speech that ordinarily is used to denote an utterly pointless, counter-productive activity that unnecessarily wastes effort better applied elsewhere), and that all it takes is "faith and commitment" (I'd think careful planning might fit in there somewhere, but that's just me). And don't you love where they say "this approach to making games is not for everyone" - in other words, hey, we're great stars who make projects so ambitious, that half of our team drops out along the way after crunching all night to "reinvent the wheel", but that's just fine, they're just not good enough to work with us.
 
@Quarto: This whole thing about working overtime has been blown out of proportion and presented like some unsolvable problem. If you don't like the treatment you can always leave. If you decide to stay then you are a coward who doesn't have the balls to fight and you deserve to be mistreated. If you tremble in fear in front of some skinny manager what would you do if someone points a gun at you? You need to grow some balls and learn to take care of yourself cause no one will do that for you. So please stop talking about working overtime like it's end of the world and move your lazy and cowardly ass out of your ergonomic chair and find some other way to earn money for you and your family.
MOD EDIT - THIS KIND OF CRAP HAS TO STOP. OTHER PEOPLE ARE ALLOWED TO HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS THAN YOU. THAT DOESN'T ENTITLE YOU TO ATTACK AND INSULT THEM.

Please stop talking sh*t about CDPR. Unlike your beloved Bethesda they fix the bugs for their games and they don't sell the horse armor for 20$ and other scandals. They also didn't destroyed the Fallout series by putting idiots like Todd Howard to lead the Fallout 3 project (I posted a picture about this on previous page). When they presented Cyberpunk 2077 on E3 this year legends like Warren Spector and Hideo Kojima were present there to show their respect. The Todd was also there but just to steal the ideas. Also if some people did left the CDPR that didn't affect the quality of Witcher games. Actually every new Witcher game was better that the previous one and what they managed to achieve with the third one was mind blowing. The critics and the RPG fans agree on this one. Bethesda only makes mediocre games and treats their fans like sh*t. To make things worse their fans are complete idiots and don't understand that. Hell even the greedy EA is capable of making a good game from time to time unlike Bethesda with their mediocre games.
 
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How silly of me; I was pretty sure what the outcome would be, and still I bothered to give mj78 the hard evidence he wanted. Well, I guess I did all I could.

The great, sad irony here is that this guy doesn't understand that the games he loves CD Projekt for, he owes to those people whom he is insulting - the ones who didn't have "balls to fight", the ones who "trembled in fear in front of some skinny manager", and carried on working to the end of the project rather than quitting with their health and lives intact. I think that's the absolute worst about people like mj78. If he were to actually meet a developer from CD Projekt (which of course I never claimed to be, so I'm not sure why all of the above was aimed at me in particular), he'd be lavishing praise, thanking him for the work he did and all that... right until the guy told him he no longer worked there, because he couldn't stand it any more. And at that exact moment, mj78 would turn on him like a rabid animal, telling him all of the above. Actually, I wonder if he wouldn't be even more hostile to a former CDPR employee than to me - I mean, I'm just a bystander expressing my opinion, but a former CDPR employee complaining about the company is much worse, he's a cowardly turncoat traitor, right?

As I've said before, I have a lot of respect for CDPR, because in spite of their problems, they do produce very impressive games. But boy, have they produced some horrible fans along the way.
 
Complaining about your previous (or current!) employer in public is a surefire way to lose employability, so it's a rare bird that chooses to do that.

And to be clear I'm no such bird, the studio I mentioned has recently been pretty open about those issues and how they've addressed them since it changed management (that said I'm still not comfortable naming them outright).
 
How silly of me; I was pretty sure what the outcome would be, and still I bothered to give mj78 the hard evidence he wanted. Well, I guess I did all I could.

The great, sad irony here is that this guy doesn't understand that the games he loves CD Projekt for, he owes to those people whom he is insulting - the ones who didn't have "balls to fight", the ones who "trembled in fear in front of some skinny manager", and carried on working to the end of the project rather than quitting with their health and lives intact. I think that's the absolute worst about people like mj78. If he were to actually meet a developer from CD Projekt (which of course I never claimed to be, so I'm not sure why all of the above was aimed at me in particular), he'd be lavishing praise, thanking him for the work he did and all that... right until the guy told him he no longer worked there, because he couldn't stand it any more. And at that exact moment, mj78 would turn on him like a rabid animal, telling him all of the above. Actually, I wonder if he wouldn't be even more hostile to a former CDPR employee than to me - I mean, I'm just a bystander expressing my opinion, but a former CDPR employee complaining about the company is much worse, he's a cowardly turncoat traitor, right?

As I've said before, I have a lot of respect for CDPR, because in spite of their problems, they do produce very impressive games. But boy, have they produced some horrible fans along the way.

You do realize that it was you that brought all this on by nitpicking his enthusiasm for CDPR right? So rather than getting digs in after he's down and out, how 'bout you knock it off. You're falling into a trap here... and doing exactly what got him in trouble by making this about him. His reaction was completely overboard for sure, there's no doubt there. But isn't this thread supposed to be about us getting mentioned in the GOG documentary?
 
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@Quarto: Sorry for waiting so long but I was on short vacation.

Speaking lies about CDPR is strange way to show your respect. Guy from a bar and mixed reviews on Glassdoor is hard evidence for you. This is just ridiculous. There is no court in the world that would accept them. With that Twitter link you shot yourself in the leg. No one has been horribly abused and working overtime is optional and also only way to earn that extra money that you need sometimes. If some people did left CDPR it had zero impact on Witcher games and my gaming experience. With every new game they raised the quality. If one day EA decides to buy CDPR then I would be really worried.

I DON'T HATE THE DEVELOPERS AND I SUPPORT GOOD ONES WITH MY MONEY! My problem Quarto is with people like you and I already explained you why. If you were a bus driver I would also dislike you but you can't say that I hate all bus drivers in the world. Stop talking lies about me.
 
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