Fleet Action questions

H

HammerHead

Rear Admiral
I have finally got me a copy of Fleet Action - one good book!

I have two questions:

1) Who or what are the Mantus? are they the Nephilim?

2) to quote a brand new hero of confed : "...Blair this, Blair that, hero of the confederation, most decorated pilot, is this guy 4000 years old?..."
and where excectly was Mr. Colonel Blair during the battle of Earth?
 
1) Who or what are the Mantus? are they the Nephilim?
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No, they're a unique race, like the Zilrathi or the Mirekkans. :)

The Mantu were created by Forstchen circa 1994 at Origin's reccomendation in Fleet Action as a 'possible' future enemy. Origin decided to go a different way in WCIV (the next game). When the concept of a mysterious alien race came back as the Nephilim in WCP, Origin retconned the Mantu into something else. According to Prophecy's ICIS manual they're a race of "insular explorers" that the Kilrathi demonized after failing to win a war with.

2) to quote a brand new hero of confed : "...Blair this, Blair that, hero of the confederation, most decorated pilot, is this guy 4000 years old?..."
and where excectly was Mr. Colonel Blair during the battle of Earth?
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Blair was there - he was Wing Commander of the Concordia. His fighter was shot down and he suffered some severe burns - he spent quite a bit of time in a military hospital directly after Fleet Action (this is all mentioned in the WC3 novelization).
 
Thanx :D

one more - is the Ark Royal the same carriar as the one in the McAuliffe ambush (that would make it the longest surviving carriar in confed :D )

Edit: I'm reminding you that you promised us the WC Bible.....
 
The Ark Royal now that's a cool ship I wish you could have served on it in a wing commander game. Also I didn't know about blair being shot down but then again it's been awhile since I read that book. :)
 
Fleet action was a good book. I wonder how forschten felt about Tolwyn, writing him as a selfless hero in the books with Bondaravesky, then having to demonize him when he wrote the novelizations of the games.
 
BlackJack2064 said:
Fleet action was a good book. I wonder how forschten felt about Tolwyn, writing him as a selfless hero in the books with Bondaravesky, then having to demonize him when he wrote the novelizations of the games.
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Well, he had to portray him that way because Tolwyn pretty much eroded as the hero we knew. The war pretty much started killing every bit of humanity that was in the man... He was a good man, but there is only so much that each of us can take before it truly changes us...
 
pygmypiranha said:
Well, he had to portray him that way because Tolwyn pretty much eroded as the hero we knew. The war pretty much started killing every bit of humanity that was in the man... He was a good man, but there is only so much that each of us can take before it truly changes us...
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Many other went through the same ordeals... And kept their minds.

Well. Origin had different plans for tolwyn than Forstchen, that must have pissed him off.
 
It's interesting that you say that, because in reading this thread, I was thinking back to all those Tolwyn threads, and all those arguments as to why he changed from one of the Confedeation's greatest warriors to a criminal and madman. You can throw around all sorts of theories as to what caused the change in him, and it makes good conversation (although it's been discussed to death), but it makes me curious Edfilho...did Origin have WCIII and IV planned out before or after Forstchen wrote End Run and Fleet Action? Or specifically, was Tolwyn's transition planned out before those books were published to create a complex character, or was that dynamic sort of thrown in as an afterthought when the premise for WCIV was decided on?

All will forgive me if this has been discussed before.
 
I was always puzzeled by the diffrance in Tolwyn's personality between End Run and WC3, and this puzzelment was increased after Fleet Actions... somehow it just doesn't add up - in the books he acts alot more human while in WC3 (the game) I always saw him as a man on the brink of madness (a brink he cross, or jumped off, in WC4).


and another question -
project Omega - what is it? the Behemoth?
 
Omega refers to a "stealthy" ship (I believe a dreadnought) being developed/constructed on the far side of Confed space, away from the war zone. It would have entered service had the Temblor bomb not turned Kilrah into pieces (and the Kilrathi fleet orbiting Kilrah not turned around and blown Confed away), but was canceled in the post-war budget cuts.

And a couple ways to ensure it's not the Behemoth - Banbridge is shocked when Tolwyn tells him that he's aware of the Omega project. Tolwyn obviously knows of the Behemoth, but, according to Banbridge, is not cleared for info on Omega. Also, Omega is supposed to be much shorter than Behemoth.
 
I believe they didn't take this particular aspect of Forstchen's works in consideration. It is important to note that the books are canon, they're based on material provided by origin and several fact contained in them are used on game manuals and scenes.

But this particular issue was treated differently by the book writers and the game writers. Ever since his inception in WC2 the game-tolwyn was a Jerk. A high-and-mighty admiral who simply hated blair and blamed him for everything. He never really trusted Blair. He did acknowledge his skill, as we see in WC3 and 4, and tried at leat twice to take advantadge of that. People were just tools to be used and discarded as he saw fit. He always believed that the ends justified WHATEVER means no matter how gruesome, and was quite the adept of Genocides (2 attempts). He didn't seem to hesitate for a second with the Behemoth, much to the contrary, he was flat out excited with it. I'd wager he'd have used it to fuel the BW conflict, were it not destroyed.

The book-tolwyn is the kind of officer people follow to their deaths gladly. He did not use fear or the weight of his rank to impose authority, he was a natural, caring leader who really valued every last life under his command. he risked the Concordia to save the Tarawa... something completely unthinkable for the game-tolwyn. He did employ grim measures, but did so while lamenting their costs in lives. He was a father for more than one of his people. And he was generally a nice boss to have.

I can't talk abou the particular plans of Origin in regardo to this question, wether they used this discrepancy as an evidence of tolwyn's madness or if they just ignored this stuff. I'd rather not speculate, for I'd surelly spark some heated debate. Everything I wrote so far is simple observation of the actions and attitude of Geoff in both sources.

It is interesting, the little I've watched of WCAtv shows a Tolwyn in-between both aspects...

All we can do, concerning both faces of Tolwyn, so different yet completely canon, is explain the changes with some kind of mind snapping crazyness. Which is not a very good explanation, given that several other key personnel have endure the same things and did not turn into SelfGenocidal maniacs... But it is the best device we have.
 
Easier than pie: Book Tolwyn = Tolwyn circa Special Operations 1 & 2, the last game to be released before End Run and Fleet Action were written.
 
You are right, of course, (I had forgotten about SO) but what about the sudden shift from SO to WC3...
 
Bad writing on the game's part more than anything. The illogic of the "evil flag officer" stereotype (which appears throughout science fiction) is daunting.
 
False Colors tried to bridge the gap a little bit, having Tolwyn hinting at his projects with Jason. Forstchen probably just didn't think he was going to turn into a meglomaniac.
 
Edfilho said:
The book-tolwyn is the kind of officer people follow to their deaths gladly. He did not use fear or the weight of his rank to impose authority, he was a natural, caring leader who really valued every last life under his command. he risked the Concordia to save the Tarawa... something completely unthinkable for the game-tolwyn. He did employ grim measures, but did so while lamenting their costs in lives. He was a father for more than one of his people. And he was generally a nice boss to have.

It is interesting, the little I've watched of WCAtv shows a Tolwyn in-between both aspects...

All we can do, concerning both faces of Tolwyn, so different yet completely canon, is explain the changes with some kind of mind snapping crazyness. Which is not a very good explanation, given that several other key personnel have endure the same things and did not turn into SelfGenocidal maniacs... But it is the best device we have.
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Well, unless you can see into Tolwyns head, its hard to make any observation of what he is and isn't. I've always viewed him as one of those people that either loves you or hates you, and vice versa for others opinions of him. We see two perspectives of Tolwyn. Bear and Company seem to be his "sons and daughters", people who love him and would do anything for him. Then we see Blairs view of him that seems to be slighted by the fact that he doesn't like the man. I have people that I absolutely can't stand, but some of my friends absolutely love to hang around them . . . neither viewpoint is expressly right, its just a POV.

How can you say he doesn't lament any of the decisions he makes in WC2 and WC3 without being inside his head as we are in the books or see the other side of him like we see in WCATV (which I think this Tolwyn is right on)? You talk about his use of the Behemoth as genocide and the fact that he doesn't seem to care about the death he will cause . . . I haven't seen any sign that Tolwyn actually views the Kilrathi as 'human'. Everything I've seen or read shows Tolwyn does not hold a Kilrathi 'life' in the same regard as he holds human (in the early years anyway) life.

I'm also not sure how you can write off the explanation that Tolwyn just 'snaps'. No one knows what causes one seemingly strong man to snap while a lesser man seems to endure. Why does Maniac go nuts while most everyone around him seems to be handling the stress decently well (some of the crew of the Tigers Claw seems to follow Maniacs lead from the conversations we have with Shotglass during Thors Hammer). No one can quantify that one person shouldn't be susceptible to cracking underpressure/diving into madness/succumbing to a mental disease while another should.

I don't think its too much of a leap of faith to consider both Tolwyns as the same man . .. its just strange to see a dynamic character in a video game/novel series when we are mostly presented with those of the one-dimensional variety.

C-ya
 
Well, one needs to be no Freud to observe the difference between Tolwyn's behavior in the different sources. The man who jeopardizes a Dreadnaught so he can save a CVE is not the same man we see in WC3 and especially 4. It is no guess work to say that the Admiral Geoffrey Tolwyn we meet commanding the Victory would write that crew off and go on with his plans. He was eager to blow as many planets he could with the Behemoth (look into his eyes, his smile...) while Blair was tormented by the memory of using the Tbomb the rest of his life. The Tolwyn we see in WC3 is quite close to the one in WC4. No one ever suspects his behavior until Blair SEES him at Axius. He is not unlike himself.

I do agree with the second part of your post. He might have snapped, no one can be sure of this things.

But I think it is quite clear that Origin and Forstchen had different plans for the character. Personally I think he's even more complex and life-like because of that. Such an important person is seldon simple or obvious. The tension between both interpretations led to a better character. I see that now.
 
Edfilho said:
Ever since his inception in WC2 the game-tolwyn was a Jerk. A high-and-mighty admiral who simply hated blair and blamed him for everything. He never really trusted Blair.
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Beg to differ. WC2-Tolwyn was a jerk, yes. To Blair. And remember, at this point, because of the Tiger's Claw, Chris Blair is a pariah; Tolwyn isn't just being a jerk for the hell of it, he thinks Blair betrayed the Claw and he's acting accordingly.

Remember what he said to Paladin: "You can’t depend on him. Ask anyone who served on the Tiger’s Claw. If you can find any of them. They’re rather scarce these days." and then later to Hobbes: "[To question Blair's courage] is standard procedure these days." But not only does Tolwyn show that he's willing to change his mind about Blair ("Maverick isn't the enemy." "He'll have to prove that to me, James.") he isn't a jerk to everyone:

Sparks on Tolwyn: "Darn fine commander. [...] You’re on his bad side, sure enough. He’s just trying to look out for his people. "

Tolwyn on Bear: "But if I could, Bondarevsky, I’d give you a medal and promotion, instead of this cell. You’re a fine officer, and I’m very proud of what you’ve done."

Bandit LOAF said:
Book Tolwyn = Tolwyn circa Special Operations 1 & 2, the last game to be released before End Run and Fleet Action were written.
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Agreed completely. My opinion is that the only time we-as-gameplayers see the "real" Admiral Tolwyn, the one who rose through the ranks and gained such trust and loyalty from everyone, is during Special Ops 1 & 2. Before that, he considers Blair a traitor who should have resigned, if not fallen on his own sword, and the next time we see him, WC3, is after the Battle of Earth, during a truly desperate time in Confed history, when the weight of the galaxy is literally on his shoulders.

Edfilho said:
He didn't seem to hesitate for a second with the Behemoth, much to the contrary, he was flat out excited with it.
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The end of war - which is what the Behemoth represented - is always something to be excited about, and Admiral Tolwyn saw the entire war; the whole, damn, decades-long thing, from McAuliffe (or was it Enyo?) in '34 all the way to the Temblor operation in '69, including losing several entire planets to Cat biological or nuclear attacks. One can't blame him for a little vindictive glee when the end looked in sight.

Edfilho said:
given that several other key personnel have endure the same things and did not turn into SelfGenocidal maniacs
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Tolwyn was the only one who had the entire fleet and the entire war on his shoulders after Confed had been crippled by the false armistice.

HammerHead said:
in the books he acts alot more human while in WC3 (the game) I always saw him as a man on the brink of madness (a brink he cross, or jumped off, in WC4).
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I wouldn't call it madness, more desperation. First Tolwyn has to save the Confederation from itself, then from the Kilrathi. Then, knowing how barely the Confed beat back the Cats, knowing how much luck and sacrifice was involved, he despairs, thinking of the next time the Confederation will meet a hostile alien race.

WC4-Tolwyn is to me, not an evil figure, but a tragic one. He's desperate. He's terrified. Yes, his methods were wrong, but they were done out of his drive to safeguard the Confederation at all costs.

I think his encyclopedia entry says it all, really: "He was convinced that humanity would now face extinction at the hands of the next enemy that came along." His desperation to prevent that led to his disgrace and death. Tragic? Yes. Ruthless? At the end. Evil? I really have to disagree.
 
Edfilho said:
Well, one needs to be no Freud to observe the difference between Tolwyn's behavior in the different sources. The man who jeopardizes a Dreadnaught so he can save a CVE is not the same man we see in WC3 and especially 4. It is no guess work to say that the Admiral Geoffrey Tolwyn we meet commanding the Victory would write that crew off and go on with his plans. He was eager to blow as many planets he could with the Behemoth (look into his eyes, his smile...) while Blair was tormented by the memory of using the Tbomb the rest of his life. The Tolwyn we see in WC3 is quite close to the one in WC4. No one ever suspects his behavior until Blair SEES him at Axius. He is not unlike himself.
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I don't know about that . . . Tolwyn has a personal investment in the crew of the Tarawa, Bear and company, his only surviving relative (I think Kevin is his only surviving relative), plus he feels responsible for getting them mixed up in the whole situation in the first place (recommending Bear for the WC job and transferring Kevin under his wing). The fact that he personally can't be there is something that was driving him crazy about the situation. I have no doubt he would have taken the Victory and the fleet to Kilrah and taken any losses that he owuld have incurred, because he was the one there .. . he was sharing the danger with his troops. I think it ate at him that he was responsible for these brave Confederation officers who were going behind enemy lines and if that was the case, he should be one to share in the danger. If he couldn't be there, then he sure as hell was going to give it his best to get them back out.

Eh, I'm pretty much just voicing alot of my personal feelings and opinions into this instead of relying on facts. Besides, I think alot of people believe he broke after the Battle of Earth . . . which would support your theory that he was 'evil' WC4 Tolwyn in WC3. (I think a character in a novel mentions he may have broke during the BoT, or maybe it was implied in a speech by Tolwyn himself . .. "the Kilrathi got so close" or something like that)

At least the above is my explanation of how WC3 Tolwyn could be the novel Tolwyn . . . that and the different POV's of our characters (goes for WC2 as well).

C-ya
 
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