Discussion on the Nephilim...

Heya, guys.

Wow...this thread started to take off just a wee bit - awesome. :)

Sanders, good point...even though the alien ships are named after aquatic life, it's assumed that these are the names designated by humans to define the various kinds of Nephilim ships. And just a bone to pick here - why is it that the Leviathan is not the most massive of Nephilim vessels anyway?! :)

Anxiety, Spien, I applaud your suggestions. Having some kind of aquatic (or aquatic-looking) aliens might be a decent suggestion. When I envision this Nephilim aligned group, I picture a numerous group of alien beings would comprise the bulk of it....in which case something like fish might be another suggestion as to a numerically superior adversary...and such a species lends itself to being as dark and mysterious as the bugs. Anxiety, not sure if the whole idea about dogs or wolf was serious or not...if not, that's pretty humorous; either way, it's a decent enough suggestion. We could have some kind of alien that look something like either the jackal-shaped aliens from Halo or (for those who haven't played Halo but are into sci-fi) the jackal-shaped guards of the alien Ra in the movie (or series, to not be picky) Stargate. That could work...have this race be sort of like technologically elite shock troops/pilots or something akin to royal guards, legionnaires, or something. Just a thought really...

In all honesty, the storyline I'm developing would be a 3-parter that would still have mostly everything to do with the bug Nephilim and virtually little to do with these other races, though I'm hoping to have them make an appearance in a few places (which is why I'm trying to nail down some possible concepts here).

Keep the ideas coming, fellas. Got some good ones so far...except for the whole space cow and space moose thing (if the Wing Commander Universe were a little less serious, I'd consider going along with both). ;)

Also...on a slightly unrelated note...what characters would you like to see brought back for such a story as this (from any of the Wing Commander games)? Oh...before I forget here - one stipulation...they should be IDEALLY still living. So if you have a suggestion about digging up Tolwyn and wiggling him around on a stick like a puppet, I think we'll probably have to pass on the idea - sorry. :)

- FireFalcon ~};^
 
Hey with the expanding technology here it is very possible they could clone someone such as Tolwyn. My suggestion was serious, a dog-like race isn't very common (i don't think) among sci-fi and could go along with the alien "theme" going on. It would be interesting if you would "dig up" Blair and "wiggle him around on a stick like a puppet," only actually alive and probably flying. I like the idea someone said earlier about having to fight Blair for the good of the Confederation.
 
Have you ever read any of the Man-Kzin War books? Something tells me Chris Roberts was a Larry Niven fan.

One thing though, is that the Kzin are honorable to a fault--which makes them somewhat predictable and easy to defeat. The Kilrathi are far more devious, and really only give lip-service to honor and the like.
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It would be hard to substantiate a link between the Man-Kzin books and Wing Commander, as the first Man-Kzin Wars was published a year after WC1 came out. :) (The Kzinti weren't new, of course... they were part of the background of Niven's Known Space for many years -- but they just showed up as things like a character in Ringworld until the MKW books developed the whole wars idea.)

Forgot about those books entirely... The episode of the Star Trek cartoon that was mentioned with the Kzinti was actually inspired by those books and supposedly a homage to them, except the cartoon episode was rather dumb. I'm sure Robert's took more than one idea from them as well.
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The episode of Star Trek was an adaptation of one of Niven's Known Space short stories, "The Soft Weapon"... which is why it has Kzinti in it.

why is it that the Leviathan is not the most massive of Nephilim vessels anyway?!
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Probably goes along with the idea that the ships were named by humans - since the Tiamat and the Kraken were a 'surprise' discovery later in the game.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
(The Kzinti weren't new, of course... they were part of the background of Niven's Known Space for many years -- but they just showed up as things like a character in Ringworld until the MKW books developed the whole wars idea.)
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The short story "The Warriors", which first introduced the Kzin, was originally published in "Worlds of If", in February 1966.
 
And thanks again for the continued replies, guys.

LOAF, good point on the naming of Nephilim ships. I STILL think they should've held off on naming anything "Leviathan" until they came up against a HUGE sucker of a ship...but eh, it didn't happen that way, so it's a moot point. Still annoying, though... :)

Anxiety, I'll see what I can do with the whole dog/wolf idea. Not sure I can have them be part of this Nephilim Aligned group or not...for whatever reason, I would think they'd make better allies of the Confederation - you know...the whole man's best friend thing...but we'll see. I'll have to give this some more thought. :)

I wouldn't really see the point in cloning Tolwyn what with the war against the Kilrathi being over and everything....not to mention the fact that WC4 kind of turned him into a bit of a madman, didn't it? Would it ever be in Confed (or anyone's) best interest to bring a warmonger like Tolwyn back to life?

As for the whole idea of having to combat Blair for the good of the Confederation...I just still can't really see it. If Blair is indeed a POW, then I could see the bugs playing around with his mind, confusing him, trying to bend him to their will. But the guy's been through so dang much all in service to the Confederation and Humanity in general. I find it hard - no...IMPOSSIBLE - to believe that the bugs could ever break his spirit and have him betray everything he's ever stood for, everything he's ever fought for, all that he's sacrificed for. So while I CAN see the idea of having to fight Blair at some point because the bugs have him screwed up mentally...I couldn't see any kind of long-term engagement against the Hero of the Confederation. I'd just like to think that the human spirit is stronger than that...otherwise, how else could Confed ever hope to triumph over the Nephilim and the Aligned? Maybe that's just me... What do you guys think?

- FireFalcon ~};^
 
I've always thought that any story that focuses on the importance of a single personality is a bit too trite. Blair's a great pilot, but no one is going to plan their war effort around whether or not they can make the evil version of him.
 
I agree, when they have billions of bug pilots, one human added to their force, no matter how good he is, can't really make a huge difference.

Now if they messed with his brain enough to somehow find a way to give their pilots some of his combat skill, then the Confed might have a problem...
 
Hmmm...

Heya, guys.

I'm totally with you on one person not really making a substantial difference to an extent...but then if that's the case, what's the point in Wing Commander at all? Wasn't it about the one guy making a difference...flying against the Kilrathi or the Nephilim, launching gutsy attacks against the K'Tithrak Mang Space Station against orders, destroying Kilrah, taking apart the Nephilim and blasting apart their wormhole gateway?

The Nephilim themselves seemed to take a very profound interest in Blair. Maybe it was simply that he was one of the most pivotal figures in Kilrathi and Human history...maybe it was that he was killer...maybe it was that he's a pilgrim and has exceptional navigational abilities so they're interested in somehow exploiting that...maybe it's because he was into R&D and ir responsible for the megacarrier design that will likely give the bugs some problems in time to come. Point of the matter is - for WHATEVER reason, the bugs seem interested in Blair which should somehow make him a key character (if we have it so he's still alive) in what is to come. I already have a few thoughts on this...and I wouldn't be against the idea of having to fly against Blair at some point (maybe have him be a bit screwed up in the head following a rescue attempt and trying to flee his rescuers because he's confused or something), but I can't see him being any kind of main enemy to fight against. And this has nothing to do with him being THAT important to the Nephilim anymore or even to the Confederation for that matter...the problem stems from the fact that he has done so much for Confed over the years, no matter how far gone he might be mentally, I just can't perceive him becoming an adversary of everything he spent a lifetime fighting for.

Spien, I like your comment, though...perhaps if the bugs could somehow find a way to give some of their pilots that level of combat skill...that's actually a pretty brilliant idea. I like it! :) That would also be in keeping with the "consuming" nature of the enemy as explained in the Sivar Prophecy...not just defeating their enemies, but rather learning from them, sucking out their very essence before moving on, evolving themselves through their conquering nature in a way...

- FireFalcon ~};^
 
I think it boils down to the idea that there's a difference between one man actually making a difference and the rest of the universe *expecting* one man to make a difference.
 
The games have shown us that one pilot can make a difference, but Blair seems more like an exception than a rule. It also brings up the question of would an evil Blair fight with the same skill and heart for the Nephilem as he would when fighting for something he, as good Blair, believes in? That and the evil version of heroes has been done before, sure I'd like to fight an evil Blair but I think it's a little cliche.

One last comment, I'd keep away from the Pilgrim stuff at all cost. Until it's referanced in a game I don't think it should exist in the game universe.
 
Thanks for the response, Spien. Yeah, I guess it would be a bit cliche to fight an evil version of a good hero...but at some point, I think anything you could ever come up with would be a bit cliche. I kind of doubt that a Blair pawn of the Nephilim would fight with as much skill, grace, or heart as Blair fighting for what he believes in, but I could be wrong...*shrugs*

I think you might have a good point in me sticking away from the whole Pilgrim subplot...honestly, I wasn't really going to go crazy with the whole concept of Pilgrims in this story anyway (though I was hoping to have a character or two that would fit into this category, most of which are already known, and one of which that would be a newer character, but I can do away with the concept altogether if you guys would think it best). Also, I was under the impression that when Blair and Marshall (Maniac) went through the Academy, that Marshall kind of won out in gunnery and flying ability, whereas Blair was the only person to ace navigation. Maybe I'm wrong, though...maybe that wasn't official stuff. If anyone has some additional notes that I could compare some things with here, feel free to insert at your leisure!

Most of the finer details of the storyline I'm planning here aren't set in stone and still subject to change, so if there's anything you guys strongly think I should include or not include, please let me know! At some point, I'll branch off on my own and write my own story, but the opinions and suggestions of the community matter to me, so please feel free to voice them. :)

- FireFalcon ~};^
 
One last comment, I'd keep away from the Pilgrim stuff at all cost. Until it's referanced in a game I don't think it should exist in the game universe.
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That leaves you remarkably little to work with. The vast majority of Wing Commander fiction comes from novels and guides.
 
The novels or other game based material I feel differently about. The movie stuff is just so remarkably different than the game that it doesn't feel right to me considering them one and the same. I know some people see things differently but that's just my opininion that the game and movie universe are two different entities.
 
Ah, so novels written by someone who never even played the games are more inclusive than the movie written and directed by the games creator?

Say what you mean: you refuse to accept any of the neat background added by the movie because you just plain didn't like the film.
 
Oooo wow....ok, let's all just take it a little easy. Save it for the Nephilim! :)

Spien, you're entitled to your opinion; I won't crucify you for it. I, for one, liked the movie AND the games, but ehhh - maybe I just have lower standards than most people or something. :)

LOAF, you made a good point. I read your response and got a pretty good chuckle out of it -

"Ah, so novels written by someone who never even played the games are more inclusive than the movie written and directed by the games creator?"

Heh...but seriously, I don't want to turn this into an arguing match and destroy a thread. Spien has his reasons, I'm sure. What one person likes, another person doesn't. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for all. Hey, I think if it did, Wing Commander games would be cranking out left and right. :)

But yeah - I value everyone's opinion here. As I said - at some point, I'm going to have to take a step back and do my own thing...write my own story. You can never make everyone happy anyway. I'm just trying to get the opinions of everyone so that I can both appease enough of the community to make it a worthwhile read to the devoted fans here and see about adding a few things here and there that you guys think would be worthwhile ideas. Does it mean I'm going to take every piece of advice? Of course not. Right now, I'm just trying to feel things out...see what the consensus is in the universe about what is good and what's trash.

So please continue to comment, guys. Tell me what you would do and what you wouldn't do. I'm interested in hearing all the facts and opinions that are out there. If I'm going to take time out of my life to actually write this bugger, though, I want to do enough background research and talk to my fellow WC fans enough so that when all is said and done, most of us will have something to be happy about. :)

For the record, I DO intend to have pilgrims in the storyline. However, I don't plan to have this storyline be based solely around that idea...it will be but one small aspect of the storyline - not a huge plot point.

Keep the ideas and opinions coming, guys. I want this to be as much for you guys as it is for me!

- FireFalcon ~};^
 
For the record, I DO intend to have pilgrims in the storyline. However, I don't plan to have this storyline be based solely around that idea...it will be but one small aspect of the storyline - not a huge plot point.
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I think that's the best way to treat the movie stuff. It's an incredibly minor part of the Wing Commander universe - it's three days worth of a thirty year war. If we want to get something out of it, we should enjoy all the high quality background material it generated -- things like the movie novels and the Confederation Handbook were all done by the same people who did the novels and guides for the games... why should we idolize Chris McCubbin's Wing Commander Prophecy Official Guide character bios but demonize his Wing Commander Terran Confederation Handbook pilot profiles? :)
 
X_FIREFALCON said:
As for the whole idea of having to combat Blair for the good of the Confederation...I just still can't really see it. If Blair is indeed a POW, then I could see the bugs playing around with his mind, confusing him, trying to bend him to their will. But the guy's been through so dang much all in service to the Confederation and Humanity in general. I find it hard - no...IMPOSSIBLE - to believe that the bugs could ever break his spirit and have him betray everything he's ever stood for, everything he's ever fought for, all that he's sacrificed for. So while I CAN see the idea of having to fight Blair at some point because the bugs have him screwed up mentally...I couldn't see any kind of long-term engagement against the Hero of the Confederation. I'd just like to think that the human spirit is stronger than that...otherwise, how else could Confed ever hope to triumph over the Nephilim and the Aligned? Maybe that's just me... What do you guys think?

- FireFalcon ~};^
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Maybe the Nephilim, or one group of the aligned, can actually find a way to control the minds of their captives. That way, instead of destroying every race, they actually control them. Then that way they could use the people they have defeated in their war effort. So they slap some sort of mind control device on Blair and they could control him to fight with everything he has as a mindless drone.
 
Hmmm...

That's a possibility I suppose, Anxiety.

My only point of concern with the cohesiveness of that idea, though...is...well, let's say that the bugs (or rather the Aligned to be more encompassing here) CAN control the minds of other species. Additionally, let's assume that the Aligned have encountered, challenged, and beaten several species prior to paying their most recent visits to Confed-Kilrathi space. Why wouldn't they have just enslaved all those other races and sent them after the Confederation and the Kilrathi, kind of like a great deluge of mindless drones from a variety of different races with different technologies all at once? Rather than just sending the bugs in to get slaughtered, why not send a huge mass of a bunch of different races to overwhelm the Confederation and the Kilrathi?

Nevertheless, I like the idea of the Aligned having the ability to manipulate the minds of other races to an extent. I don't know about making them mindless drones or anything, though. I think it should be more like they suck all the knowledge out of the races they're about to conquer, then when they've learned all there is that's worthwhile to know, they spit them out, erase them from existence, and move on...kind of like mental parasites hoping to acquire the combined knowledge of all sentient life in the universe. And maybe in the process of extracting such knowledge from Blair's mind, it rots his brain - maybe makes him incapable of separating what's going on in his mind from the physical reality around him (as a point of reference, maybe think of the movie "A Beautiful Mind" here), maybe at some point even make him catatonic...basically, we're talking about the utter destruction of a mind. It wouldn't be so much a control that would make rescuing Blair difficult...it would be the mental hell he'd be locked in after they picked his brain sufficiently maybe, and the steps that would have to be taken to ground him back in reality if he's to make any kind of meaningful recovery and/or contribution.

At least, this is the idea I'm playing around with right now. I can see the merits of borderline insanity being something Blair would have to be pulled back from the brink of. But as for him becoming a mindless drone...I don't know that I'd like that storyline too much. First off, it seems too Star Trek Borg to me. Second, I still have to believe a guy like Blair is too strong willed to be so easily controlled. He had enough courage in his heart to fly against Thrakhath and K'Tithrak Mang Starbase alone when others continually labelled him a coward, he had enough fight left in him to blow Kilrah to hell even after losing so many friends and Angel by the close of the war, and he had enough purity and freedom of spirit to purge the Confederation of Tolwyn's unscrupulous antics even after having suffered through everything before that. This is a very strong character we're dealing with here, in my opinion. And no matter how superior the Aligned are, I just can't believe that they could have the power to make so powerful a creature fight against everything he once fought for.

I guess no matter how I make the storyline - whether it's that Blair's but a pawn of the Aligned, or that (like I have above) he's been pushed past the mental breaking point - I personally just have to believe that he can still be saved. I'll be honest with ya - this is one of the key points that I'm intending when writing this story...not to pen down some great tragedy, but to leave just a sense of hope by the end. Ironically, the last game of the series (for God only knows how long), Wing Commander Prophecy, ended with the disappearance of Blair, the threat of a superior enemy lingering off in the distance, and an uncertain future for the WC Universe at large. I just don't want that to be the way the story ends... Call me a dreamer or an optimist...but I just think it needs more hope and more heart than Prophecy left the storyline with; I think the community needs to have a better sense of closure, a more uplifting temporary conclusion to hold them over...something more inspirational that suggests the merits and rewards of not giving up and convince them that there's still enough of a reason to fight the good fight.

I guess on some level, that too is cliche. But all stories end only a couple of different ways anyway, don't they? I guess in the end, that's not the most important thing, is it? It's the journey that matters, all those things that were lost and then found, all that was sacrificed and gained along the way. And that's all I hope to produce. It would be by NO means an ending, but rather just a continuation of the journey (and I fully intend to leave it open-ended for those who might be concerned about that). If this still doesn't convince you, consider all the Wing Commander games we've played or stories we've read...how many of those endings were "original?" As most of the games wound down to their endings, we could see what that ending would be a mile away. Because it's all been done before. But yet we love these games because of the experience, the story, the heart...not so much the ending because it's only a matter of time before the saga continues anyway, right?

Keep the ideas coming, guys. I'm definitely going with the idea of having of having Blair be manipulated by the Nephilim, but the storyline will likely focus on him being the big playing card in this whole thing - the one thing the Nephilim desperately want, and the one thing Confed (and others) can't let them have, no matter the cost.

I apologize if this general concept does sound cliche. I'm still convinced I can turn an unoriginal idea into a fairly original masterpiece, but I suppose only time will tell...

Thanks for all your input, guys. Please do keep it coming...

- FireFalcon ~};^
 
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