Corvettes: Paradigm vs Venture?

Discussion in 'General Wing Commander Chat' started by gavinfoxx, Apr 4, 2012.

  1. capi3101

    capi3101 Rear Admiral

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    Puts us back where we were, doesn't it? I mean, without a size stat, we're pretty well stuck.

    You know what, forget about size. Let's look at their respective capabilities for a moment.

    Paradigm: 200 kps, "Poor" acceleration, "Poor" Maneuverability, ?? Shields, 80/65/65/50 cm Armor - 2MES, 2TAC, 1IPC, 3xLASTUR, 3xMASTUR, 10x1DF, 2x1 IR, 1x1 HS
    Gilgamesh: 250 kps, "Poor" acceleration, 2 dps, Phase Shields, 250/200/200/250 cm Armor - 2FLAK, 2AMG
    Southampton: 200 kps, 10 kps^2, 5dps, 2000 cm Shields, 1000/1000/1000/100 cm Armor - 9xLASTUR, Light Fighter compliment.

    The thing to note is the type of armament and the relative strength of the defenses. While the Paradigm may have more guns, none of them would be particularly effective against enemy capital ships, but they would be good against pirates, raiders and such. I mean, the Antimatter Guns on the Gilgamesh can bypass shields, so that's a definite anti-ship capability. Southampton...well, it's guns aren't all that strong necessarily, but they'd be sufficient to swat down incoming torpedoes or give incoming enemy bombers hell, and that's where its strength of defenses comes into play.

    Strength of defenses...well, a centimeter of Durasteel is a centimeter of Durasteel is a centimeter of Durasteel. I mean, you can conceivably kill a Paradigm with civilian-grade weapons, while its contemporaries generally require torpedoes.

    The Paradigm is clearly not a front-line warship - no matter how "advanced" it ostensibly is - but as a pirate interdictor, it could do the job without taking one of those heavier craft off the lines. It'd probably be cheaper to build too...all the more reason to even build something like this in the first place.

    Anyway, I guess that's my argument for calling it a destroyer escort. It is stronger than the Exeter and Venture, no argument there.

    Without going too deep into size, I'll play devil's advocate by saying that the ship could be really small and the guns normal-size, thus appearing big relative to the ship. Like I said, though, without a size stat...
     
  2. Bandit LOAF

    Bandit LOAF Long Live the Confederation!

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    The problem is that it's a long standing conceit in Wing Commander that the weapons we see in the game aren't the same as the ship's "real" fictional armament. This makes a certain amount of sense--what's the point of a destroyer with eight fighter-caliber lasers?--and there's something of an awkward science to figuring it out (largely thanks to False Colors.) The turrets we "see" are heavier weapons that aren't necessarily simulated in the game and then a ship is assumed to have a greater number of anti-fighter defenses (flak cannons, laser barbettes, etc.)

    As you can see in the render earlier in the thread, the Paradigm has SIXTEEN visible dual-mount turrets... versus eight on the Gilgamesh, seven on the Exeter and nine on the Southampton. And then its fighter defenses, seen in the game, are very exotic for a capital ship--meson blasters, tachyons, mass drivers, ionic pulse cannons and so on instead of just lasers.

    I don't see how it can be very small when it's supposed to be carrying Stilettos and Broadswords... or, and here's the important thing, WHY it would need to be any of this. Privateer calls it a destroyer and treats it as pretty impressive (think of how important Terrell and Reismann treat two of them together as being... "a whole fleet,") so... /why would it need to be anything else/?

    (The Privateer manual: "The Paradigm is one of the Confederations most advanced destroyers." That's almost the only thing we know about it. So why jump through hoops to figure out some elaborate way that that must not be true?)
     
  3. capi3101

    capi3101 Rear Admiral

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    Oh, it actually says that? <flip...flip...flip...... /> Page 53. Sure enough. Okay...a big "never mind" from me, then.
     
  4. Deathsnake

    Deathsnake Rear Admiral

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    Can be. I work over it again and here it is:
    Upside: 10 Turrets
    screen0016.jpg
    Downside: 6 Turrets:
    screen0017.jpg
    In the Privateer Manual it has : 2 Meson, 2 Tachyon and 1 Ionic Impulse Cannon and 3 Single Laser and 3 Single Mass Driver Turrets.

    Now here I need to change that to the 16 turrets. Finaly I give it: 3 Tachyon Turrets, 5 Mass Driver Turrets and 8 Laser Turrets (more firepower as the original). Its not a counterpart to a real destroyer (except the Ralarad with the weapons),with its shields and armor not really a match to the other ones. A few AMG hits and this ship is history. But! I make a single mission to test the balance.... 40 fighters attacking the Paradigm. Over 20 ships are lost! I try it with Dralthi, Darkets and Vaktoths. The first wave of 10 Darkets are blown up in the first seconds. Afterall you can say: its a heavy threat to Kilrathi fighterwings. If Confed would build 2000 of this class and not the crappy Behemout, Blair don't do the suicide run with the Templor bomb. They 2000 would destroy every fighterwings the Kilrathi had.

    PS: still problem with the eniginecoordinates :/
     
  5. capi3101

    capi3101 Rear Admiral

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    I appreciate seeing where the turrets are - but (without meaning to sound like a jerk about it) I do have to ask what part of "never mind" was unclear......
     
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  6. Bandit LOAF

    Bandit LOAF Long Live the Confederation!

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    The Paradigm size thread will NEVER end! NEVER EVER!
     
  7. Deathsnake

    Deathsnake Rear Admiral

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    I read it too but I liked your idea.

    Against a Southampton the Paradigm is just a little egg. Much more shields, armor, Capship missilelancher, AMG. Against a Gilga less shields, armor, 2 AMG vs. none. Even the light Ralarad with no AMG has much more shields and armor. So its a class between the Venture and the bigger destroyers. Better armed as a Kamekh but less armor and shields.
     
  8. Wojo

    Wojo Commodore

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    Really? I always just thought it was a ship of the line, not any type of carrier...

    For the purposes of adding it into a game, I would use all the size stats & role designation from the manuals, then add weapons to make it match those stats. As is said above, the weapons seen in-game obviously are as such to balance the type of gameplay in Privateer, where you are only engaging several fighters & single capship, with no wingman (in most circumstances).

    To work with Saga style gameplay, I would be adding laser turrets for anti-fighter defence, slapping on a couple of anti-capship weapons (amg) and perhaps defensive missile armament. Hell, add torp launchers if needs be. Although some of the charm of the Paradigm (apart from the aesthetic) is the wide array of energy weapons, in my opinion gameplay considerations should be the focus. In a roundabout way, that brings it closer to achieving its purpose - a 'Destroyer' - in essence serving the fiction & literature rather than game-specific stats.

    Does that make sense? Does in my head. But vomiting my brains onto the internet can be difficult. (and messy)
     
  9. Bandit LOAF

    Bandit LOAF Long Live the Confederation!

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    PARADIGM THREAD AHHHHHHH

    I think the vast majority of Wing Commander's destroyers have some small fighter complement.

    Heck, The Secret Missions for the SNES has a VENTURE with a fighter complement. :)
     
  10. Nomad Terror

    Nomad Terror Rear Admiral

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    You should put the Behemoth gun on the Paradigm.
     
  11. Dyret

    Dyret Super Carrot!

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    The paradigm is actually a moon.

    True story.
     
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  12. Ijuin

    Ijuin Admiral

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    On the other hand, nowhere does it say that the fighters are all docked in an internal landing bay. In "End Run" we get to see fighters docking externally, for example.
     
  13. Bandit LOAF

    Bandit LOAF Long Live the Confederation!

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    Hah, good luck finding room to dock five Rapier IIs on the outside of a Venture! :)
     
  14. Aginor

    Aginor Vice Admiral

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    Perhaps they had a long rope with them and attached the Rapiers to it, like those old sail ships had sometimes :D
     
  15. Wojo

    Wojo Commodore

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    It's too big to be a moon. Probably some kind of space station. If I want a venture I usually just tape a bunch of cats together.

    That's enough I'm not going to be responsible for prolonging the death throes of this thread. Somebody hand me a sidearm and I'll shoot it in the spine or cloaca or something.
     
  16. Quarto

    Quarto Unknown Enemy

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    Hmm, I can't bring to mind what you might be referring to. Did that happen in End Run?
     
  17. Nomad Terror

    Nomad Terror Rear Admiral

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    Yeah, definitely every one of those turrets should be a Behemoth gun.
     
  18. Bandit LOAF

    Bandit LOAF Long Live the Confederation!

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    I was WAITING FOR SOMEONE TO ASK THAT!

    Short answer: it was The Secret Missions for the SNES.

    Longer answer: if you recall, memory space was SO limited on Wing Commander SNES that they couldn't even have all of the original ships... they had to double up the Salthi and use it as the Jalthi, palette swapped (which gave us the amazing 'Green Salthi' cover art painting for Secret Missions, too...)

    Anyway, for The Secret Missions they ran into that problem again: one of the big draws of the game was that it added several new ships. They were entirely incidental to the gameplay, but they were probably the biggest bullet point. And here Mindscape was trying to sell Secret Missions as a $70 standalone game instead of a $30 mission disk. So they needed the new ships...

    ... which meant dumping some OLD ships. One of which, oddly, was the Exeter... which they dutifully replaced with the cool new Venture corvette. That meant that the Marciano could appear in the first mission... but--and I think you see where we're going with this--that the Gwenhyvar could not! Suddenly instead of a destroyer the Gwenhyvar was a corvette... but with same mission where you fight her Rapiers. They did properly change all the dialogue, so the characters talk about it as a corvette that defected "with her full complement of fighters."

    And of course the game's spiffy new corvette design somehow became the focus of the ad campaign and it started showing up in all the promotional artwork. Here's a giant fleet of Ventures flying around the Tiger's Claw for some reason:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 8, 2017
  19. Aginor

    Aginor Vice Admiral

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    Wow, that's... I don't know a word for that :D
     
  20. LeHah

    LeHah 212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"

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    That sure is a fine bit of art. I miss the days of opening up gaming magazines and having my imagination set alive with some new half-page blotter of starships or whatever.
     

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