Confederation Class Design Questions

[frostytheplebe]

Ok this is in regards to the ship we all know, love, and seem to not know all that much about. Much of what we see in fan renders and add-ons is mostly guess work due to the pixilated graphics of the era. There have been theories and some things proven from improved graphics during the in-game movies.

At the end of the runways we see a pair of bulbs that from the normal game play, we could only guess as to what they are. Based on what we've seen from the Spirit's funeral, These are gun turrets. Given their enormous size and the fact that we can locate about 8 of thing, I believe it's safe to assume that these are the antimatter, battleship style, guns.

This means that the Confed dreadnought has almost no rear defense from enemy capital ships, except what can be hit from below. Which calls into question, what/where the Flak guns are. It is possible that they are the red "pods" up front, but as the manual said there is only 3, this isn't possible as there are at least two more on the sides. It's more likely that these are some sort of sensor pod or navigational array.

Though not 100% certain, one of the two structures of the top, the one between the runways, is either an advanced sensor pod, or more likely a com array. The second structure, seated above the hanger deck is quite obviously the bridge. This is, of course, based on other ships' design such as the TCS Victory's and the TCS Midway's bridge placement.

The placement of the Phase Transit Cannon is the most obvious one of the bunch. From the description in the WC2 Joan's manual, "It makes up the keel of the ship." Meaning that the entire under part of this massive warship IS the PTC.

So the two big questions about this ship design I guess would be:
#1. Where are the Flak guns located.
#2. What is the "pit" behind the the forward tower and between the runways?

After careful inspection of the magnificently designed model by the Standoff Team, mostly by smashing into it so many times, keeps this pit in it's place as the structural design.

Klavs81, however, eliminated this pit. In it's place, he put what appears to be a landing pad. Perhaps this would explain where the Bonnie Heather docked, as we see the Dilligent do the same thing in the Wing Commander Movie. This may be perhaps the most likely conclusion.

Any thoughts?

 

[Wedge009]

The pit has been discussed many times. Personally, I'm not too fussed about trying to reconcile the graphic designers' work with what we know of a given ship's statistics.

<spelling-nazi-mode>

• 'In its place', not 'In it's place'.
• 'Hangar deck, not 'Hanger deck'.

</spelling-nazi-mode>

Before people complain, this education necessary for the sake of my sanity on WCPedia. Prevention is better than cure.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

At the end of the runways we see a pair of bulbs that from the normal game play, we could only guess as to what they are. Based on what we've seen from the Spirit's funeral, These are gun turrets. Given their enormous size and the fact that we can locate about 8 of thing, I believe it's safe to assume that these are the antimatter, battleship style, guns.

Remember that the original model still exists--only the textures were lost. We can, indeed, identify eight 'bulbs' on it: a pair at the base of the prongs, a pair just past the helipads and one at the end of each of the two forward 'wings'. Here's a rendering from the original model that shows them all:

And as you mention the forward two, at least, have gun barrels added in the funeral sequece (courtesy of Wedge):

Another image to consider is the VDU graphic:

You can see that there are red markers for the eight green bulbs... but also fifteen other points: two at the front, two at the back, three along the spine, two on the rear fins and six along the edges of the rear wings.

Here's the sprite:

Note that the smaller red bulbs overlap the turrets marked on the VDU image in almost all places:

- two in the front
- two in the back
- two along the rear spine
- three on each of the rear wings
- four on the fins
- two on the side just past the helipads

That's a total of eighteen. Four of these don't show up on the VDU image: the two on the sides and two on the fins. That's likely because on the top-down image they'd be in the same place as two of the green spheres and two of the other red spheres.

That leaves one VDU weapon unaccounted for--which is , of course, the PTC.

... except! Here's the famous PTC closeup shot:

This was a new rendering separate from the original and it adds... four more red spheres, in rapid succession under the PTC barrel (at the end of the clip).

Klavs81, however, eliminated this pit. In it's place, he put what appears to be a landing pad. Perhaps this would explain where the Bonnie Heather docked, as we see the Dilligent do the same thing in the Wing Commander Movie. This may be perhaps the most likely conclusion

No, it's clearly a pit in the original model. The problem is that because of how the WC2 images were rendered into bitmaps it only appears visible at an angle... but check out this:

Clearly a pit.

If you're looking for a vertical dock, though, try the "helipads"--what are they there for? Note also that they're adjacent to the forward structure that needed a purpose...

 

[Bob McDob]

I think the red spheres are meant to be running lights.

 

[Madman]

well they look like running lights, but the vdu appearance suggests that they are weapons, also why would you need running lights in space! (also why would you need to paint the ship green and have painted runways and helipads etc...)

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I think the red spheres are meant to be running lights.

It's hard to say. They feel like lights.. but as I said above, they do match up with the seeming weapons indicators on the VDU chart... and in the 3D model they're the same basic spheres that are used to rerepresent what's clearly a large turret when seen in in a drawn background (but smaller and red instead of green).

They also don't seem to generate light. Look at the various Confederation WC2 sprites (including the Concordia)--they all have portions of their hull illuminated by white spotlights at various places (like the running lights on the Star Trek movies' Enterprise).

(also why would you need to paint the ship green and have painted runways and helipads etc...)

Painted runways are presumably because ACLS is a best case scenario--presumably you've got crippled fighters coming in for combat landings on a powerless flight deck on occasion.

I do wonder about the green. Perhaps it's genuine honest camoflage--dating back to when carriers' were supposed to get close to planets to launch space-to-ground strikes.

 

[Madman]

Heh, I was mostly joking about the paint, running lights make sense for directing in damaged fighters, entering space-dock, but in combat operations they seem like a signal to the enemy that you're here and ready to be torpedoed!

 

[Dyret]

This was a new rendering separate from the original and it adds... four more red spheres, in rapid succession under the PTC barrel (at the end of the clip)

Looked to me like that was part of the PTC itself 'charging up.' They appear to be black, initially.

 

[Sylvester]

The forward structure appears to have some sort of anttena on it - perhaps it is the combat systems suite associated with the PTC. The cannon forms the keel of the ship, but something needs to gather the data and program the gun to properly bypass the shields of whatever its about to blow up. That forward superstructure may be for targeting data. As for the "Helipads" - they may be reference markers for ships coming alongside, such as cargo ships and refuelers. And the "pit" in the center could be used to transfer large palletes of cargo onto the ship very quickly.

As for the paint - when you have long range sensors and with the amount of heat a starship would give off compared to the vacuum of space, it doesn't matter what you paint the capship. Perhaps the coloring is simply a matter of pride.

 

[Wedge009]

Perhaps it's genuine honest camoflage--dating back to when carriers' were supposed to get close to planets to launch space-to-ground strikes.

You'd have to contrast that with the Kilrathi's choice of orange, wouldn't you? And the Concordia is fairly 'new', right? Would it have been in this era of space-to-ground strikes? (I ask because you say 'dating back'.)

A lot of this is speculation, I know.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Looked to me like that was part of the PTC itself 'charging up.' They appear to be black, initially.

Very good catch.

You'd have to contrast that with the Kilrathi's choice of orange, wouldn't you?

I believe we're told in the novels that the Kilrathi ships aren't painted--the yellow/orange/bronze is raw "Kilrathi durasteel".

And the Concordia is fairly 'new', right? Would it have been in this era of space-to-ground strikes? (I ask because you say 'dating back'.)

I guess Concordia herself would be newer.

 

[frostytheplebe]

Very good catch.



I believe we're told in the novels that the Kilrathi ships aren't painted--the yellow/orange/bronze is raw "Kilrathi durasteel".



I guess Concordia herself would be newer.

A few points here...

The only lights we see charge like that are the ones on the keel along the gun itself. We don't see these in flight, or during any other time during the game, so perhaps it's fair that those ones were running lights. The others being guns makes the most sense to me, given the evidence.

Pretty much all the military ships in WC1 had that green paint. The Tiger's Claw had some, as did the Aux ships. The only ones that didn't really were the transports. All the fighters as well had these colors.

In WC2, this slowly began to change. Military ships like the Epee, Sabre, Broadsword, and Rapier all have that paint job. The Ferret does not. This one is a little tough to explain... and given that I admittedly don't know the history of each fighter that well, I'm going to give my theory, for what it's worth:

The Ferret was either a newer patrol craft (I'll get to the relevance of newer designs later), or it was a ship that was build for in system security, perhaps militia, and not regular military. Perhaps the super ferret was a variation of this new design, or it was built off of an existing hull.

Now about the newer craft remark... we see the new prototype fighters built without the green "Camo" to me this suggests that they were pushing towards the more modern fleet designs of WC3. However it is possible that the green were fleet colors as well.

 

[Wedge009]

I believe we're told in the novels that the Kilrathi ships aren't painted--the yellow/orange/bronze is raw "Kilrathi durasteel".

I suppose that makes sense, although, I'm quite sure there are plenty of grey areas seen on the Kilrathi ships as well.

I can accept that this is a little hard to resolve.

 

[Marc]

haaaw, everybody's posting pics on the Confederation dreadnought except me

The WC Novels describe “drag scoop” for the human engines (magnetic fields projected in space to collect stray hydrogen atoms to feed the engines). All of those red dots on the sprites look like interesting places for “scoop” emitters.
Let’s not forget the box art:

And IF the bridge is located inside the very ROUND shaped tower between the engines, then tell me why, oh by the grace of all that is good and pure WHY is the inside of that bridge square?

I can totally wrap my mind around all of these absurd fictional concepts (big bad talking cats, “jumping” between stars, tachyon guns...)
But a square room on the inside that is round on the outside... it’s to much, I... I can’t.
I need a life. ...Bah!

 

[Dragon1]

I guess Concordia herself would be newer.

I was under the assumption that the entire class was new. Weren't the Confederation-class Dreadnoughts built around the reverse engineered Kilrathi proton weapon that destroyed Goddard?

 

[Wedge009]

Yes, the Phase-Transit Cannon forms the keel of the Confederation class.

 

[Bob McDob]

You'd have to contrast that with the Kilrathi's choice of orange, wouldn't you?

But Kilrah itself is orange!

 

[Bandit LOAF]

The only lights we see charge like that are the ones on the keel along the gun itself. We don't see these in flight, or during any other time during the game, so perhaps it's fair that those ones were running lights. The others being guns makes the most sense to me, given the evidence.

Agreed--based on the available evidence I assume they were added to the later 'close up' 3D model of the Phase Transit Cannon to show that it was charging (in that particular scene, in Special Operations 2).

Now about the newer craft remark... we see the new prototype fighters built without the green "Camo" to me this suggests that they were pushing towards the more modern fleet designs of WC3. However it is possible that the green were fleet colors as well.

I think the element we're forgetting is that a paint scheme on a fighter is a very temporary thing. It's not like you build a fighter and it's comes out green or white... an air crew can repaint a fighter in a matter of hours or even strip it down to factory silver overnight. The shift from camo schemes in Wing Commander I & II to unpainted and stealth schemes in Wing Commander III and IV is probably supposed to mirror the same shift in World War II.

The Ferret was either a newer patrol craft (I'll get to the relevance of newer designs later), or it was a ship that was build for in system security, perhaps militia, and not regular military. Perhaps the super ferret was a variation of this new design, or it was built off of an existing hull.

I'll chime in to note that the Ferret was not a new fighter--we see them first in the late 2630s. (But that doesn't matter either way, really--the age of a fighter's design isn't the same thing as the age of a particular fighter. The Scimitar may be a hundred year old design... but the one Blair is flying was probably built a month ago.)

I was under the assumption that the entire class was new. Weren't the Confederation-class Dreadnoughts built around the reverse engineered Kilrathi proton weapon that destroyed Goddard?

That is correct.

But Kilrah itself is orange!

Or is it green?! Or metal?!

Although that does remind me that we do hear about Kilrathi fighters with 'ground camo' in End Run.

 

[Dragon1]

I think the element we're forgetting is that a paint scheme on a fighter is a very temporary thing. It's not like you build a fighter and it's comes out green or white... an air crew can repaint a fighter in a matter of hours or even strip it down to factory silver overnight. The shift from camo schemes in Wing Commander I & II to unpainted and stealth schemes in Wing Commander III and IV is probably supposed to mirror the same shift in World War II.

Capital ship paint schemes changed constantly throughout World War II.

USS Nevada at Pearl Harbor with dark and light gray:

...and the Nevada much later on during the war:

LOAF once mentioned that the paint schemes themselves might indicate a particular fleet force. I remember a conversation which speculated that the red painted Border Worlds capships were in fact stolen Confed capships that all belonged to the same task force, but I can't find the thread that this was mentioned.