Command Decision, kind of an opinion poll
- Thread starter Death's Head
- Start date
Death's Head
Spaceman
LeHah, did you not see this..."it would be...prudent to send fast and heavily armed ships to ensure thier destruction."
I saw your remark before, and this quote was sort of a response to it then as it is now.
I saw your remark before, and this quote was sort of a response to it then as it is now.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
That's an interesting idea, Cricket. But you are sacrificing speed. One of your Arrows ends up flying at a Thunderbolt's speed, while one of your Thunderbolts ends up flying at Longbow speed.
Also, if the transport convoy turns out to be heavily defended, you're almost bound to lose one or both ships, since the Arrow is too light to hold the enemy back, while the Thunderbolt is too slow to escape unless someone does hold the enemy back.
Finally, your close escorts may have some trouble, because the Excalibur will essentially end up escorting not only the carrier, but the Longbow as well. A Longbow is too slow to be useful during carrier defence operations, where you have to be everywhere at once. And it would have trouble against the Paktahns since, it is neither faster nor stronger than they are. So, most likely, the Longbow would soon succumb to the bombers, and the single Excalibur wouldn't be enough to defend the carrier.
Kalkrath: No, I do not see why they built Krakens.
Also, if the transport convoy turns out to be heavily defended, you're almost bound to lose one or both ships, since the Arrow is too light to hold the enemy back, while the Thunderbolt is too slow to escape unless someone does hold the enemy back.
Finally, your close escorts may have some trouble, because the Excalibur will essentially end up escorting not only the carrier, but the Longbow as well. A Longbow is too slow to be useful during carrier defence operations, where you have to be everywhere at once. And it would have trouble against the Paktahns since, it is neither faster nor stronger than they are. So, most likely, the Longbow would soon succumb to the bombers, and the single Excalibur wouldn't be enough to defend the carrier.
Kalkrath: No, I do not see why they built Krakens.
Death's Head
Spaceman
If the fighters were available, combining different fighter wings would be practical, but in this case, you make the mission a lot tougher than it ought to be.
Longbows are surprisingly effective in dealing with one or two Paktahns, which amused me at first, considering the Longbow still used neutron guns.
Kalkrath, to what are you referring?? Does this have something to do with the Kraken's ablility to smash a fleet at a moment's notice? Keep in mind, torps do still damage hulls, I think it was described as not being worth a fighter's efforts to maul a hole in a capship through brute force. If those hulls can be destroyed easily by capship missiles, then heavy torps can break through the shields and, if fired in salvos, actually damage the hull. Shielding on the Triton must be no better than a Devastator's becuase on plasma round is enough to breach a cargo module. From what I recal from the Proph guide, the weakspots are better protected than the rest of the ship. I think the Plasma has a penetration of 600 and those cargo boxes have a dp of 500 each, that leaves 100 or less for shielding, unless plasma weapons bypass shields altogether, which doesn't make sense beacuase ion drives give off plasma exhaust, yet capships are sometimes very close together. Could be the particles are so highly charged that the shield grid is permiated.
Longbows are surprisingly effective in dealing with one or two Paktahns, which amused me at first, considering the Longbow still used neutron guns.
Kalkrath, to what are you referring?? Does this have something to do with the Kraken's ablility to smash a fleet at a moment's notice? Keep in mind, torps do still damage hulls, I think it was described as not being worth a fighter's efforts to maul a hole in a capship through brute force. If those hulls can be destroyed easily by capship missiles, then heavy torps can break through the shields and, if fired in salvos, actually damage the hull. Shielding on the Triton must be no better than a Devastator's becuase on plasma round is enough to breach a cargo module. From what I recal from the Proph guide, the weakspots are better protected than the rest of the ship. I think the Plasma has a penetration of 600 and those cargo boxes have a dp of 500 each, that leaves 100 or less for shielding, unless plasma weapons bypass shields altogether, which doesn't make sense beacuase ion drives give off plasma exhaust, yet capships are sometimes very close together. Could be the particles are so highly charged that the shield grid is permiated.
Death's Head
Spaceman
Oh no...*frowns in dismay*
You don't by chance think the longbow and the thunderbolt have the same specs?
I know a wc3 neutron gun when I see one and it sure as hell doesn't maneuver at...ah hell with it just see for yourself. http://www.geocities.com/bricer98/wc3fighters.html
You don't by chance think the longbow and the thunderbolt have the same specs?
I know a wc3 neutron gun when I see one and it sure as hell doesn't maneuver at...ah hell with it just see for yourself. http://www.geocities.com/bricer98/wc3fighters.html
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Heh... I knew their YPR was the same (and very, very wrong
), but I must say that somehow, I never noticed that *all* their stats are listed as being the same
.
Yes, I like those stats of yours a lot better
. BTW, are you sure that the Longbow's speed is 380? I haven't played WC3 for something like a year now, but I could have sworn that it was 320.
Oh, and you're being just a tad inconsistent
. Some of the WC3 shield/armour stats on your page have been divided by 10 (which I wholeheartedly approve
), but you've left a lot of others the way they are. So, you're gonna have to change one of the two groups.
Yes, I like those stats of yours a lot better
Oh, and you're being just a tad inconsistent
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Death's Head
Spaceman
Yes, I know. I was hoping to have that done already today, but I was tinkering with those costs again, and looking through some novels. Just finished my homework, which I could have done last night had I not gone to the casino.
I'm making the numbers 1 tenth what we see in the manual, actuall, I giving the values for WC3 ships with that .1cm factor in, and the longbow speed, yeah...uh when I was going through those ships I wanted to save time by copying the code with the color text codes in, and stat alignments in. The result was some numbers are indentical. The speed is 320, from looking, I think the longbow has a tractor in its turret. I know the recharge can't be right, but if I reinstall wc3, I should change those fairly quickly.
I thought you might have noticed it wasn't done from the lack of cruise velocity and afterburner accel, plus the lack of mouse-over. It's not because I don't know, I just forgot the values or scrambled through the stuff so fast, I forgot to make sure I rewrote text blocks I copied. I think I copied the Arrow down the Confed line, then used the t-bolt's for the longbow because they took up about the same amount of space.
The Kilrathi fighter lengths are something I just don't get, I think the manual uses beam numbers instead on length for a few ships. The picture in the WC3 capships page, if you right click and save should allow you to see the fighter scale a little better. I have better images of the fighters, like 600 or 1200 dpi to a scale of .005 in/m. Sadly, my original charts which looked much nicer than that rough dorsal scale pic were lost when someone "borrowed" my cdrw.
"Yes, I like those stats of yours a lot better"
Just what are you saying, Q with that bg?
I'm making the numbers 1 tenth what we see in the manual, actuall, I giving the values for WC3 ships with that .1cm factor in, and the longbow speed, yeah...uh when I was going through those ships I wanted to save time by copying the code with the color text codes in, and stat alignments in. The result was some numbers are indentical. The speed is 320, from looking, I think the longbow has a tractor in its turret. I know the recharge can't be right, but if I reinstall wc3, I should change those fairly quickly.
I thought you might have noticed it wasn't done from the lack of cruise velocity and afterburner accel, plus the lack of mouse-over. It's not because I don't know, I just forgot the values or scrambled through the stuff so fast, I forgot to make sure I rewrote text blocks I copied. I think I copied the Arrow down the Confed line, then used the t-bolt's for the longbow because they took up about the same amount of space.
The Kilrathi fighter lengths are something I just don't get, I think the manual uses beam numbers instead on length for a few ships. The picture in the WC3 capships page, if you right click and save should allow you to see the fighter scale a little better. I have better images of the fighters, like 600 or 1200 dpi to a scale of .005 in/m. Sadly, my original charts which looked much nicer than that rough dorsal scale pic were lost when someone "borrowed" my cdrw.
"Yes, I like those stats of yours a lot better"
Just what are you saying, Q with that bg?
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Hmm, wouldn't you be able to somehow use the models to work out their length? I dunno, I have no idea about the models. But you might want to ask KillerWave or Snuzzleduck(y), since they seem to be the ones doing all the model editing these days.
. Of course, it would be difficult NOT to prefer those stats of yours over what appears in the KSaga manual
.
Oh? For once, the bg was there to express satisfaction rather than to mock thee
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Death's Head
Spaceman
I suppose I could ask, ducky already thinks my Dragon is too big and the proph ships are small. I told him, canon lengths.
"For once, the bg was there to express satisfaction rather than to mock thee"
First time you were satisfied by anything in my site...
[This message has been edited by Death's Head (edited May 05, 2000).]
"For once, the bg was there to express satisfaction rather than to mock thee"
First time you were satisfied by anything in my site...
[This message has been edited by Death's Head (edited May 05, 2000).]
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Ahh, this canon is gonna drive me up the wall. I mean, how can we stick to canon if the canon is wrong? To make things more confusing, canon by definition cannot be wrong... but it is...
*First time you were satisfied by anything in my site...*
Think of it as constructive criticism
.
*First time you were satisfied by anything in my site...*
Think of it as constructive criticism
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I have a very different idea:
Send the Thunderbolts after the transports and keep all other fighters close to the carrier. The Excals, Arrows, and Hellcats all provide fighter defense against the incoming wings (the carrier itself could fly to the fighters). Then fly the carrier to the cruiser (after the fighters are dealt with) keeping it just out of range, send the Longbows and Hellcats (for escort) to attack the cruiser and it's fighters (there is also a good chance that there may be an enemy destroyer or corvette escort). The Thunderbolts rendeavous(sp?) after they take the 'sports.
Send the Thunderbolts after the transports and keep all other fighters close to the carrier. The Excals, Arrows, and Hellcats all provide fighter defense against the incoming wings (the carrier itself could fly to the fighters). Then fly the carrier to the cruiser (after the fighters are dealt with) keeping it just out of range, send the Longbows and Hellcats (for escort) to attack the cruiser and it's fighters (there is also a good chance that there may be an enemy destroyer or corvette escort). The Thunderbolts rendeavous(sp?) after they take the 'sports.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Interesting. You allow the enemy to concentrate their attack, but at the same time you concentrate your forces to counterbalance them. And you get the advantage of having the carrier's guns when fighting.
At the same time, cruisers usually move faster than carriers. So, if this cruiser decides to continue on course, you may not be able to catch up with it. Alternatively, it may get reinforcements (a fighter escort, a carrier, anothe cruiser... anything's possible). In fact, it WILL get reinforcements, because it's obviously found you, if you found it. So, your surviving fighters may not be enough to handle that strike force - and the cruiser will not stay out of range, it will agrresively engage the carrier. In which case, your carrier would be doomed.
All in all, not bad, but the cruiser will remain a problem, either for you or for other Confed forces.
At the same time, cruisers usually move faster than carriers. So, if this cruiser decides to continue on course, you may not be able to catch up with it. Alternatively, it may get reinforcements (a fighter escort, a carrier, anothe cruiser... anything's possible). In fact, it WILL get reinforcements, because it's obviously found you, if you found it. So, your surviving fighters may not be enough to handle that strike force - and the cruiser will not stay out of range, it will agrresively engage the carrier. In which case, your carrier would be doomed.
All in all, not bad, but the cruiser will remain a problem, either for you or for other Confed forces.
Hm, let's see.
Earthworm would send a Longbow, and the T-bolts against the cruiser. There's no way two unescorted bombers would get throught the turret fire, so the T-bolts go in and take out as many turrets as they can before the 'bow moves in. Than one of the T-bolts races back to the carrier wich was moving slowly after the cruiser, while the second T-bolt escorts the 'bow. The second 'bow and an Arrow go for the transports. 'Sports are week, and those two should be able to handle them. The 'cats are short range ships, so they stay on CAP near the carrier along with the remaining Arrow. The two Excals sweep through the two points with incoming fighters.
[This message has been edited by Earthworm (edited May 06, 2000).]
Earthworm would send a Longbow, and the T-bolts against the cruiser. There's no way two unescorted bombers would get throught the turret fire, so the T-bolts go in and take out as many turrets as they can before the 'bow moves in. Than one of the T-bolts races back to the carrier wich was moving slowly after the cruiser, while the second T-bolt escorts the 'bow. The second 'bow and an Arrow go for the transports. 'Sports are week, and those two should be able to handle them. The 'cats are short range ships, so they stay on CAP near the carrier along with the remaining Arrow. The two Excals sweep through the two points with incoming fighters.
[This message has been edited by Earthworm (edited May 06, 2000).]
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Another interesting concept, but again, fails to consider several important points.
Sure, the transports are weak, but what about their unknown number of escorts? A single Arrow is not, I daresay, adequate escort for a single bomber... a Longbow at that. If there was even two or three fighters near the convoy, the Arrow would get creamed within seconds. The Longbow might hold up for another few seconds
.
Furthermore, you are risking a lot when you assume that the Excalibur wing can deal with both fighter groups in the short space of time before either group gets to the carrier. Do you really want to risk having the two Hellcats engage both the bombers and the wing of fighters? Most likely, neither the Thunderbolt nor the two Excaliburs would return in time to save the carrier from certain destruction.
Sure, the transports are weak, but what about their unknown number of escorts? A single Arrow is not, I daresay, adequate escort for a single bomber... a Longbow at that. If there was even two or three fighters near the convoy, the Arrow would get creamed within seconds. The Longbow might hold up for another few seconds
Furthermore, you are risking a lot when you assume that the Excalibur wing can deal with both fighter groups in the short space of time before either group gets to the carrier. Do you really want to risk having the two Hellcats engage both the bombers and the wing of fighters? Most likely, neither the Thunderbolt nor the two Excaliburs would return in time to save the carrier from certain destruction.
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Quarto, you forgot about the Thunderbolts. They won't take forever to destroy the 'sports even if there is an escort. Also, if there are large Kilrathi forces then maybe a withdrawal is needed. In that case, send the Excals to attack the 'sports and jump the carrier out. Have the Excals meet up (they can jump) in a safe place. Since you are supposing that there might be back-up (a cruiser or whatever) then the best idea is a hit-and-run, because lets face it- a carrier with this fighter amount and type could not effectively knock out 2 cruisers and 'sports while protecting itself.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
No, I'm not forgetting the Thunderbolts. However, they have some way to go, some fighting to do, and some way to come back. Since they are quite slow, that will take some time
.
In regards to your hit-and-run idea, it could work. There are two problems, however. One, we haven't been told how far away is the jump point. And two, we haven't been told what our actual mission is. Maybe it's so vital that we can't afford to pull out?
Finally, while we cannot take out two cruisers, we can definitely take out one. And that's what this is about. Making the most of a great opportunity to cripple the enemy forces in the area.
In regards to your hit-and-run idea, it could work. There are two problems, however. One, we haven't been told how far away is the jump point. And two, we haven't been told what our actual mission is. Maybe it's so vital that we can't afford to pull out?
Finally, while we cannot take out two cruisers, we can definitely take out one. And that's what this is about. Making the most of a great opportunity to cripple the enemy forces in the area.
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How's that any different from sending two Longbows without escorsts against a cat cruiserQuarto said:
Hm, seing how I only have 10 fighters in my arsenal, I assume the cats don't have much more. So yeah, I think the Excals could deal with them fast enough.
There's a risk in every plan.
You too seem to rely on the Excals geting back to the carrier to asist the forces there. The 'Cats and the Arrow would most likely dispose of the bombers before the fighters could get there. And fighters themselves couldn't do anything to a carrier, even if they did take out the defenders before the rest of the group gets back. Plus, like I said the carrier was moving behind the cruiser, so at least the T-bolts could get back in time.
[This message has been edited by Earthworm (edited May 06, 2000).]
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Death's Head
Spaceman
"There's no way two unescorted bombers would get throught the turret fire"
Has anyone ever tried to fly a longbow with shields at 300% recharge against the rear vector of a cruiser?
Two torps seem to be enough to take down most any cruiser up to wc4.
"Otherwise, DH would say something about them."
Which he did, sort of.
"Hm, seing how I only have 10 fighters in my arsenal, I assume the cats don't have much more."
And you would soon see yourself floating home.
"And fighters themselves couldn't do anything to a carrier"
I seem to recall being able to knock out the turrets off a carrier flying a hellcat only to take the rest of the ship out at my leisure.
Has anyone ever tried to fly a longbow with shields at 300% recharge against the rear vector of a cruiser?
"Otherwise, DH would say something about them."
Which he did, sort of.
"Hm, seing how I only have 10 fighters in my arsenal, I assume the cats don't have much more."
And you would soon see yourself floating home.
"And fighters themselves couldn't do anything to a carrier"
I seem to recall being able to knock out the turrets off a carrier flying a hellcat only to take the rest of the ship out at my leisure.
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