Cloaking Station?

[Dahan]

But it's been in Wing Commander since Wing Commander 2...

Yes that is true, but I merely stated that it is interesting that Wing Commander has its own way of using the cloaking device concept into the game.

83,45% of all Scifi universes have cloacking ships.

That is true, but then I suppose the basis of all or majority of sci-fi shows, games and what nots has cloaking technology somewhere.
But then when I think about it, I am surprised that it was near the end of the Kilrathi War did confed developed their cloaking device. Where you think of Earth's military history that they had primative stealth technology and did not further develop the stealth technology

 

[cff]

But it's been in Wing Commander since Wing Commander 2...

Well technically cloaking was happening in the WC1 timeframe already (but in the WC2 engine).

 

[AD]

Yes, we see it implemented in the skipper missile (in WCM) and then only a few short years later (2 years?) the Strakha fighters take out the Claw. A setback in the kilrathi production keeps them relatively out of the spotlight until a reemergence 10 years later. Related technology is seen in the ship in WCA tv that , while is not cloaked, just painted black, is capable of being invisible to sensors.

It really isnt that long after wc2 that confed has its own cloaking technology in wc3 (just over 2 years)

 

[Mace]

On thesame WCA episode, the technician (maya?) said:

confed has been trying to develop a stealth ship for years, if the cats could do it..

 

[Nomad Terror]

I was speaking "real world" timeline wise

 

[AD]

On thesame WCA episode, the technician (maya?) said:

confed has been trying to develop a stealth ship for years, if the cats could do it..

Stealth and Cloaking are not one and the same.

 

[Dahan]

Stealth and Cloaking may not be one and the same, but you would have think that over the many years, Confed would have thought of such a thing and like I said earlier it took nearly the end of the Kilrathi War for them to figure something out...

 

[AD]

Stealth and Cloaking may not be one and the same, but you would have think that over the many years, Confed would have thought of such a thing and like I said earlier it took nearly the end of the Kilrathi War for them to figure something out...

You know, I really am not sure what your getting at. I know, and stated that confed developed a usable cloak and first implemented it on a fighter in WC3 with the excalibur.

Should it take them 600 years to develop this technology when we have stealth fighters today? Yes. Todays technology is immaterial in considering the concept of cloaking devices in WC. For one, todays stealth is based on avoiding radar detection and such. In wing commander ships can be detected by their engine trails (particles left in the exhaust) and even the electrical current running through the ships computer could give you away.

And another thing, thinking of a concept, and putting it in to practice are two separate things. No two civilizations (confed or kilrathi for example) will develop at the same rate or in the same direction.

I dont know what year the Kilrathi started using skipper missiles but confed is familiar with them by the time of WCM. If the fighters that destroy the Claw are the first true cloaking kilrathi fighters, we can see that it took at least 3 (or more) years to go from the point of a cloaking missile to a cloaking fighter. The fact that confed had a cloaking fighter in wc3 could indicate that during the timeframe of wc2 Confed may actually have had working cloaking devices, just not ones that would be usable on fighter (of course they would be extremely classified And would be in harmony with loafs theory that Tolwyn was aware of the possibility if cloaking fighters amongst the kilrathi.) It's true they may not have been that advanced and it could be that they sped up their development time by reverse engineering the wreckage of - or a captured - strakha.

 

[Dahan]

You know, I really am not sure what your getting at. I know, and stated that confed developed a usable cloak and first implemented it on a fighter in WC3 with the excalibur.

Yes I agree to that point which I was trying to say that it was near the end of the Kilrathi War (from a certain point of view)

Should it take them 600 years to develop this technology when we have stealth fighters today? Yes. Todays technology is immaterial in considering the concept of cloaking devices in WC. For one, todays stealth is based on avoiding radar detection and such. In wing commander ships can be detected by their engine trails (particles left in the exhaust) and even the electrical current running through the ships computer could give you away.

Yes that is true, but you think that over the 600 years humans would have thought of the theory and tried developing it during those six centuries.
The theory of Tolwyn knowing that that there were some cloaking fighters were among the Kilrathi prior to WC2 is a very strong chance. The Kilrathi and the Confederation had a certain philosophy of military tactics and combat.
In some case Confed did not consider using cloaking tactics whereas the Kilrahti did....

 

[AD]

In some case Confed did not consider using cloaking tactics whereas the Kilrahti did....

I really dont think that confed didn't bother to consider using cloaking technology. Rather, like I pointed out, all the evidence points to confed not having the technological knowhow until WC3.

Whether or not you personnally feel that 600 years is more than long enough to develop this technology, it is apparent that in the WC Universe it wasnt. Being that we dont really have a clue what technological advances are needed to make a working cloak I dont think that you can say they had the time and knowledge and just didnt do it.

That aside, Pliers and Blair both acknowlege that the Kilrathi "always had us beat " with regards to cloaking technology. And confed would use whatever could possibly give them an edge... that would include cloaking if and when they could get the technology working. Don't forget that the warfaring kilrathi didnt work out cloaking fighters till after wc1 either. I'm sure they had hundreds of years to attemp to develop cloaking devices too.

 

[Dahan]

That maybe the case. But somehow I doubt that Confed would be that damn not to consider develping such technology but then I could be wrong

 

[Mace]

I think the development of new weapons, engines and armor would be set
prior to research for a cloak. while at war you have only limited recources

Also, considering the events of WCA, WCM, and the game series, from the
before mentioned episode, tolwyn confirmed the existence of a "stealth"
ship, also the kilrathi fighter was called the strak'ha, same name as given
to the cloaked fighters that took down the tiger's claw, and then, in the
intro sequence to WC2, tolwyn talks about a "claims for a kilrathi cloaking device"

the difference between the two is clear, the successor was capable of hiding
itself from sight at will as well as from sensors.

i hope the bugs don't think of it, should a true successor to SO ever come to exist.

 

[Delance]

Then Thrakkath argues about how they destroyed his stealth fighter technology. There's no distinction between stealth, invisible and cloaked fighters.

 

[AD]

Then Thrakkath argues about how they destroyed his stealth fighter technology. There's no distinction between stealth, invisible and cloaked fighters.

No. A cloaking fighter is a stealth fighter, but a stealth fighter need not cloak. To say so is like saying that All chickens are birds therefore all birds are chickens. The instance you mention proves nothing. Plus, we see in the WCA episode "invisible enemy" that they can track the stealth fighter visually but not with their instruments. Its paint job and such makes it more dificult to do so though. And the stealth fighter is never seen cloaking in that episode.

 

[Delance]

The fact is that the terms are interchangaeble on WC.

 

[Paddybhoy]

No they're not (I'm sorry for constantly disagreeing with you Delance)

A Stealth fighter is much like the contemporary concept, it can avoid (with an unconfirmed degree of success) detection but is visible to the naked eye (although a black paint job makes it difficult to see) e.g. like the fighters in the Academy Cartoon series

A ship capable of cloaking is invisible to the naked eye and other methods of detection e.g. like all the strakha's and Dragons of WC 2,3 and 4

Do you mean that stealth amd cloak are interchangble in terms of the game engine?

Also I must state that I do NOT consider the stealth fighters of Academy nor the Skipper missles of the WCM to be part of my *personnel* overall understanding of the WC universe (although I enjoyed all of the cartoons and I thought the skippers added some enjoyable tension to to the end scenes of the movie, which was also good) they just don't all come together to make a consistent and logical chain of events.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

The idea that the Kilrathi were developing a fighter that was invisible to radar and then followed it with a fighter that was completely invisible doesn't make a consistent and logical chain of events?

Does the fact that Confed went through the same process when developing their cloak fifteen years later help?

 

[Quarto]

Do you mean that stealth amd cloak are interchangble in terms of the game engine?

He means that the writers never cared about the distinction you're trying to make. They used stealth and cloaking in such a way that the two terms clearly mean the same thing - regardless of what the real life meaning of these terms may be.

 

[Paddybhoy]

I'm talking about the whole 'Tolwyn refuting the existence of stealth fighters and being wrong and THEN refusing to believe Blair about the destruction of the Tigers Claw at the hands (or paws) of the Kats cloaking fighters'

Its already been discussed in other threads so I'm gonna keep ma gob shut on the subject!

 

[Delance]

No they're not (I'm sorry for constantly disagreeing with you Delance)

Do you mean that stealth amd cloak are interchangble in terms of the game engine?

Quarto got it right. The writers don't differentiate the terms on WC2. Even on the intro they use ‘cloaking device’, ‘invisible fighters’ and ‘stealth technology’ to refer to the same thing. I didn’t have the time to check, but this probably continue during the game. Now, you can argue the semantics for the sake of retcon, but the game was not written with this in mind.

Also I must state that I do NOT consider the stealth fighters of Academy nor the Skipper missles of the WCM to be part of my *personnel* overall understanding of the WC universe

This is your right. But I, being a Catholic and all, am not particularly inclined to put much stock on *personal* overall understandings of the universe. If we start pick and choosing, there wouldn't be much left. Wing Commander includes all official sources, it doesn't matter if we like them or have a personal understanding if they work well together. Then there would be no such a thing as WCIU. I could *personally* understand that TPOF novel is not part of WC because it messes with the game. LOAF could *personally* rule out WCIV altogether because it messes with Tolwyn. Some other guy who likes Hobbes might *personally* not consider WC3. Hey, on the HOTT novel Blair says he can't conceive a human traitor just a little time after Jazz and the Mandarins. That *can't* be part of WC! You should really start digging the a.g.w-c archives.

WC material is filled with inconsistencies. It doesn't really matter, since the problem is conceptual: if you accept that an inconsistency should bring down the whole thing, as LOAF pointed out, not even the WC1 would stand togheter, since the game is not sure about the number of engines the Tiger's Claw has.

I'm talking about the whole 'Tolwyn refuting the existence of stealth fighters and being wrong and THEN refusing to believe Blair about the destruction of the Tigers Claw at the hands (or paws) of the Kats cloaking fighters'

Either Tolwyn really didn't believe on invisible fighters, or he really hated Blair for no reason at all. The first one is of course more likely. But Tolwyn is stubborn and has an inflated ego... Or perhaps the people who wrote that didn't know about what had just happened, or ignored it. This kind of thing happens.