Cf-131/a-17

Dragon1

Rear Admiral
The Broadsword has always been one of my favorite ships from Wing Commander since we saw it in WC2.

The 2664 version of Joans list this ship as an A-17. The Confederation Handbook states that the Broadsword seen in the movie has been in service since at least the Pilgrim War and was designated CF-131.

Are these two separate bombers? Is the A-17 really the Broadsword II? That would make sense why we never see torpedo bombers in WC1. Once guns were able to once again overpower meson shields, the need for torpedo bombers would have gone the way of the Dodo. At this point, Confed may have retired its 20 year old plane.

Also, note in the WC movie that the torpedoes didn't phase penetrate. They always impacted on the shields (like Star Trek torpedoes). Even Paladin waited until a Kilrathi battleship lowered its shields (in preparation of launching torpedoes) before firing his torps at it. We know that the technology to phase-penetrate had been introduced in Action Stations. What happened? Did shield tech just become greater?
 
I would argue that they are the same ship in intent and in history.

We *do* see A-17 Broadsword's among the Tiger's Claw's complement several months later - on Wing Commander Academy. In fact, I'd go so far as to argue that Academy's 'flat' WC2-looking Broadsword is a good missing link between the variant seen in the movie and the one seen in Wing Commander II. It looks more like the 'original' (WC2) Broadsword, but it still has the tandem seats and the more tapered fuselage.

Heh, speaking of the Broadsword, I saw a thread at one of those Lunix fan game boards where people were hotly debating what the 'real' equivalent of the Broadsword was supposed to be. If you can't figure out what the analogue for the olive drab, ball-turreted strategic bomber with the number seventeen in its designation is, you're a sad specimen indeed :).

Going by that analogy that was obviously in the minds of the bombers original designer, the movie-style Broadsword would be the Model-229 (with the big teardrops!), the Academy Broadsword would be the original Flying Fortress, the Wing Commander 2 version would be the B-17G and the Privateer/TPoF novel/FC version would be the various post-war patrol/decoy/training/etc. surplus refits.

Shield technology fluctuates, but torpedoes are always a help. It's cyclical -- we see it literally occuring in Wing Commander IV, as the newest ships again have shields that need torpedoes... and then by Prophecy, new guns (the Plasma Gun) are finally starting to be able to knock down shields again.
 
I know this has probably been brought up a thousand times, but I just don't recall what the resolution was-- were the Wing Commander Academy fighters considered canon for the time? I know we see Hellcats (not neccessarily the Hellcat V), Longbows, and Sabers. Did all these fighters see service in 2653/2654?
 
I don't see anything wrong about Academy's continuity; rather, it jumped through some pretty respectable hoops to specifically use non-contradictory ships.
 
Loaf,

Would you happen to have a list of when specific Confed fighters came into service? I am unsure about several, but here's what I've got...

CF-105 Scimitar: 2530s
CF-117 Rapier: 2547
Corsair: ?
Gotha: ?
Wildcat: ?
Trident: ?
Hornet: 2633
CF-131 Broadsword: 2635 (reconfigured, redesignated 'A-17' by late-2654)
A-14 Raptor: 2636 or thereabouts
Epee: 2650
Saber: 2652
Hellcat (V): 2653
Longbow: 2654
F-44 Rapier II: 2654
Ferret: 2656
Stiletto: 2664
Morningstar: 2667
Crossbow: 2667
Gladius: 2668
Arrow: 2668
Phantom: 2668
Banshee: 2669
Wraith: 2669
Thunderbolt (VII): 2669
Excalibur: 2669
Bearcat: 2673
All Prophecy fighters: 2675-2680
 
Sure -- if you want to list the fighters, I'll post the logic behind what I know. Starting with what you have already...

CF-105 Scimitar: 2530s
Pre-2527, based on TCH's claim that they're older than the Rapier (which began development in 2527).

CF-117 Rapier: 2547
2536, directly stated in TCH.

Corsair: ?
2639, based on Action Stations' claim that they were five years from entering service. The novel later says that a 'crash program' has been started to get them into service, so they could theoretically enter service sooner.

Gotha: ?
No idea. Action Stations calls them "ancient".

Wildcat: ?
2604, based on Action Stations' claim that they were thirty years old.

Trident: ?
No idea, like the Gotha this is a single novel reference.

Hornet: 2633
There's no clear service entry date for the Hornet, and despite many claims otherwise there's no actual evidence that it's a pre-war design.

CF-131 Broadsword: 2635 (reconfigured, redesignated 'A-17' by late-2654)
2633 or 2634, based on TCH's claim that Broadswords were first deployed with one of the Confederation's Grand Fleets (which were 2633 and 2634).

A-14 Raptor: 2636 or thereabouts
There's no date for the Raptor, either. The earliest reference to the Raptor is their service during the 2639 Enyo/McAuliffe Engagement.

Epee: 2650
I am unsure as to whether the ships which look like Epees in Wing Commander Academy actually are. I used to claim they were, but I've grown more conservative over the years. The WC12USG claims that (in 2666) they replaced the Hornet five years earlier... which would make the service entry date for the Epee 2661. You heard it here first, folks.

Saber: 2652
No date. First appearance is on Wing Commander Academy in 2654.

Hellcat (V): 2653
No date. First appearance is on Wing Commander Academy in 2654.

Longbow: 2654
No date. First appearance is on Wing Commander Academy in 2654.

F-44 Rapier II: 2654
Yup!

Ferret: 2656
Ferrets appear earlier, as part of the TCS Iason's complement in 2638. No clear service entry.

Stiletto: 2664
There's no history whatsoever for the Stiletto. Earliest appearance is in Privateer in 2669.

Morningstar: 2667
Yup!

Crossbow: 2667
Yup!

Gladius: 2668
No history here, and what we do know is somewhat confusing - they're heavy fighters included in the Lexington's complement in 2668 and then they're miliita patrol fighters in 2669 in Privateer. I like the idea, vis a vis Super Wing Commander's implication, that the Gladius a followup to the Raptor.

Arrow: 2668
No date. First appearance is on Wing Commander Academy in 2654. Note to things - the Voices of War ships list is actually dated 2654 and the Kilrathi Saga manual calls them 'Arrow V's at a point or two.

Phantom: 2668
No history here, first appearance is on the Lexington in 2668 (as you noted). I also like Super Wing Commander's implication that these terrible, terrible fighters are followups to the Scimitar.

Banshee: 2669
Nice call on the year. Yes, 2669 is correct, as the first Banshees join the Lexington's complement *after* the events chronicled in Voices of War (which bring the story into 2669).

Wraith: 2669
Somewhere between 2667 (when they start training pilots for it at the Academy) and 2668 (when they're on the 'Lex), I suppose. Frankly, I prefer the earliest possible date as Voices of War claims rather oddly that Reaper cannons have gunned down more enemy fighters than any other type of gun.

Thunderbolt (VII): 2669
2668 at least. We used to point to a quote in The Authorized Combat Guide that said Col. Hart had been flying them for six months at the start of WC3 as evidence that they'd entered service specifically in 2668... the quote is more vauge than I'd like, so we'll call 2668 the earliest reference rather than the absolute service entry.

Excalibur: 2669
Yup!

Bearcat: 2673
Unknown - but probably.


All Prophecy fighters: 2675-2680
Probably... although, who knows? The Lance was supposedly the F-107... so in a strictly numerical sense the Piranha and the Tigershark could have been around during Wing Commander IV.
 
Thanks Loaf!

I am trying to do a write-up on Confed's fighter inventory and this really helps! Did I miss anything?
 
Oh, sure, yeah, theres five more from Action Stations: the Hurricane, the Hummer, the Gladiator, the Falcon and the Minotaur.

Then there's the Lance from Wing Commander IV, plus maybe the WC4 Banshee, since Confed seems to be flying them as trainers at the end.

There's the Merlin-class, from TCH.

Then there's the unknown fighter from Academy (that they shoot down the Strakha with)... and presumably the Talon from Privateer was originally a military design as well (since surplus Talons are sold to the Church of Man).
 
Oh, sure, yeah, theres five more from Action Stations: the Hurricane, the Hummer, the Gladiator, the Falcon and the Minotaur.

Would you happen to have any more info on these? I don't own a copy of Action Stations.
 
Would you happen to have any more info on these? I don't own a copy of Action Stations.

Sure -- I guess I was kind of curious as to why you listed the Gotha and the Trident but not any others.

The Hurricane-class Surface-to-Space Escort is the Confederation's "second tier" fighter in the novel, after the Wildcat-class Space Interceptor. Hurricanes are over 40 years old (in 2634) and were originall designed to escort Gladiator-class Bombers and Sheridan-class Landing Craft. Think of it in terms of what the actual Hurricane was in comparison to the Spitfire during World War II.

The Gladiator-class Bomber is... the bomber that the Hurricane was designed to escort, so presumably it's over 40 years old. Gladiators are mentioned as being among the 'front line' fighters lined up at Johnson Island. The Hummer-class Light Reconaissance/Strike is mentioned in the same manner, and presumably is also a 'normal' modern ship.

The Minotaur-class ship is presumably a fighter. It's mentioned in the context of being a relic. Some are still on the field at Johnson, but they're "well over a hundred years old".

The Falcon-class Fighter-Bomber is only mentioned once, but in the context of being one of the fleets 'hot' assignments (like the Wildcat). Presumably they're the 2634 equivalent of the Sabre-class.

Also, one everone (including me) always forgets: the Thor-class Bomber is another class mentioned (later in the novel) as being at Johnson.
 
Thanks again Loaf!

Hopefully this list that I am compiling on fighters and capships will do the WC universe a justice.

Question:
Bomber meaning Surface strike missile platform, correct? We know that the Broadsword came about in 2633/34, but that A-M torpedoes were not yet avaliable to Confed forces. If these older bombers were meant to attack fleet ships, were they equipped perhaps with 'fusion' torpedoes?
 
Yeah, back then bombers didn't go up against ships of the line at all -- they were for hitting planetary targets and for anti-shipping missions. I'm sure they had some kind of null-g bomb or rocket.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
The Minotaur-class ship is presumably a fighter. It's mentioned in the context of being a relic. Some are still on the field at Johnson, but they're "well over a hundred years old".
It's ironic that this kind of description would be used to suggest that a fighter is obsolete, when the backstory later added to the Scimitar made it equally old. I wonder if this means that the Minotaurs could have still been on the front lines in 2654, too.
 
It's ironic that this kind of description would be used to suggest that a fighter is obsolete, when the backstory later added to the Scimitar made it equally old. I wonder if this means that the Minotaurs could have still been on the front lines in 2654, too.

On the other hand, B-52s are still a vital part of the United States Air Force while lots of aircraft of a similar vintage have been replaced three or four times.
 
Looking at the Sabres from WC2, and knowing that we see them as early as 2653, would it be much of a stretch to say that they could have been Confed's answer to the Krant dive-bomber.

Evidence from the Wing Commander Movie shows us that torpedo bombers didn't need to phase-lock their torpedoes-- that they would essentially fire them like any other aspect seeking weapon. If this is the case, having a fast, heavy platform, like the Saber would seem advantageous.
 
That sounds like a big case of making a complex explanation without much reason for it. A few things that take the heart out of it to begin with: the phase shielding penetration issue runs in cycles, and the Sabre introduction doesn't even seem to actually be timed to that stuff. We know so little about these things that it seems silly to try to prop them up against eachother to formulate some big explanation that's essentially unnecessary. Who needs an excuse to design and field a fast and heavy fighter? The Sabre isn't the first, nor the last, in a long line of such fighters.
 
I have a question about the Broadsword myself, in regards to ejection seats.

In WC2 only the pilot can eject, if you attempt to do so in a turret you would not be able to. However it would seem that there would have to be some sort of way for the gunners to eject, lest you lose three people with the ship. I haven't found any concrete evidence that states that they can or can't(same with the tail gunner for the Sabre).

Could a gunner eject from his turret? Or would he be stuck in the ball so to speak.
 
Perhaps the entire turret ejects and becomes a mini life pod.

That sounds like a big case of making a complex explanation without much reason for it.

Perhaps, but modern fighters aren't built just because one is heavier or faster than another. They are built with some sort of task in mind. An F/A-18 and an F-15 can both dogfight, but they both have separate roles that the designers specifically created.

I figure that while Confed has a slew of Light, Medium, and Heavy fighters, that during the war-era are all multi-role, there would still be some specific reason behind the design of the fighter.
 
DJ Erik said:
I have a question about the Broadsword myself, in regards to ejection seats.

In WC2 only the pilot can eject, if you attempt to do so in a turret you would not be able to. However it would seem that there would have to be some sort of way for the gunners to eject, lest you lose three people with the ship. I haven't found any concrete evidence that states that they can or can't(same with the tail gunner for the Sabre).

Could a gunner eject from his turret? Or would he be stuck in the ball so to speak.

Not being able to eject from the turrets was most likely a coding limitation due to the game designers not thinking about the option. The only time I recall the novels touching on turret gunners in damaged ships was with the Saber-D flown by Griffin that Kevin Tolwyn abandoned to go after a Salthi (which he first identified as a Sartha, then after landing claimed it was a Drakhri), in the initial attack on Vukar Tag (End Run), and Tolwyn's abandoning the Saber let three other kats sneak in and destroy it before Bondarevski could intervene. The Saber's pilot and gunner were said to be recovered (Jim Conklin, the copilot, died), but there weren't any details of the intervening period between ship destruction and crew retrieval.
 
Gunners can eject. "Griffin" and his gunner eject from a Sabre shot down at Vukar Tag in End Run.
 
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