Breaking Point

[Frosty]

There's no point in extracting hydrogen from anything. No matter how you do it, you're spending energy you'll never get back. Why use solar power? Just dump that right into the grid and it'll do more good.

Electrics were never a sales leader. Very early on when they were as close to a genuine option as ever, they were regarded as city cars for women, and not full-duty automobiles. They have always been a niche product, and will always be until they can meet the standards I set above. Until we have the capability to produce them as such, there's no point in considering them at all.

 

[Max Gene]

See, dumping it into the grid is fine if you have a 200 mile extension cord for your car. Meanwhile, I'm talking about extracting the hydrogen for the sake of putting it into the fuel cell. Solar power was my choice as it isn't wasting another natural resource we have to replace or isn't replenishable; it just keeps coming in.

And again, I never said that hydrogen was the best method of doing things, or even that things needed changing (although a lower use of gas wouldn't hurt us by this point); I simply said that if we were going to be stuck with it, that's the best way to go.

 

[Ijuin]

Because you can get a LA degree at any dime community/state college and with a similar level of intellectual investment. And I'm not sure I understand what you mean by unmarketable.

I assume that he means that there are far fewer employment positions for liberal arts majors than there are liberal arts majors, and as a result a large portion of them will find themselves working jobs that have nothing whatsoever to do with their college field of study. In other words, their degrees contribute comparatively little towards success in finding employment.

 

[Frosty]

Meanwhile, I'm talking about extracting the hydrogen for the sake of putting it into the fuel cell.

Foolish. Hydrogen fuel cell cars are a bad idea. They will never, ever be efficient. They can't even achieve the range of electrics, so dumping it into the grid actually benefits motorists more. I'm not an idiot, I was ignoring your stupid idea for a reason.

Solar power was my choice as it isn't wasting another natural resource we have to replace or isn't replenishable; it just keeps coming in.

The amount of physical space you need to generate meaningful amounts of electricity from solar panels is mind-blowing, and there's not too many places in the world truly suited for real solar power generation. It would be a terrible idea to throw it away on hydrogen.

I simply said that if we were going to be stuck with it, that's the best way to go.

Nuclear would be.

In other words, their degrees contribute comparatively little towards success in finding employment.

Having a degree at all contributes massively to one's success in finding employment. It doesn't matter the type.

 

[cff]

Electrics were never a sales leader. Very early on when they were as close to a genuine option as ever, they were regarded as city cars for women, and not full-duty automobiles. They have always been a niche product, and will always be until they can meet the standards I set above. Until we have the capability to produce them as such, there's no point in considering them at all.

So what you basically say is that it is the male ego that is hindering the electric car?
Now, situation might be a bit different in the USA compared to Europe as you seem to indeed have to handle slightly larger distances, but in reality for at least 95% of people the speed and distance an electric car would offer would cover all daily needs. How for is your workplace from home? Would you really not be able to reach it with an electric car? How fast are you allowed to drive there? Would you really not be able to reach that speed with an electric car? Yeah I know that fancy sports car or that hummer is hotter and feeds you ego, but if it was a pure rational decision...


As far as nuclear (at least conventional one - fusion is another topic) power goes, that would be the worst option of all. Besides being the most dangerous to follow and the unsolvable problem of the nuclear waste it wouldn't even work.
If people would 'waste' nuclear power like we do for oil we would be out of fuel in less then 10 years. There is actually an incredibly small amount of radioactive material. Granted, some more might be found, but it is still a comparably small pool.

 

[Spartan689]

Well I happen to be a proponent of nuclear power seeing how it is my career choice.

Nuclear power is in fact the most efficient form of energy and one of the cleanest forms out there. While yes, we do create radioactive waste that waste is dumped safely or reused in other various manufactured forms. The only waste that nuclear energy creates while the reactor is running is steam, not very harmful unless you get in the way.

As for the idea that we are running out radioactive materials... that is just ludicrous. We have more than enough materials to sustain the nations nuclear reactors, yes at present we use plutonium and uranium from former soviet missiles, but that was as a deal when the Soviet Union fell and they started to sell their nukes. We took 'em so no one else would. The US has plenty of stockpiles of uranium (which is naturally occurring and the most common variety used in reactors).

As for safety transporting nuclear waste... believe me it is safe. You can bet the government knows exactly where the waste is in transport and the drums they are transported in... tough as hell. You can probably see some of the videos of the tests on youtube. They crash jets and trains at full speed into these things and not once have they ever been compromised.

The nuclear industry is actually growing at a very rapid pace. At my facility alone, Calvert Cliffs Facility - Constellation Energy, we are just beginning a new hiring cycle after completing our shutdown for the year. The US government has also approved the construction of fourteen new reactors that will be completed by 2015. So the jobs are available and waiting for those who want. What most people find surprising is that you don't need a degree in nuclear engineering to work at a reactor. Most POs (Plant Operator) and ROs (Reactor Operator) are actually fresh out of the navy with no college experience whatsoever, but with experience with reactors on the ships. Myself, I have a BA in History as does my friend who also works with me. Now granted we both worked at the reactor at Washington State University, still BA in History, not exactly math geniuses.

Well, that's my two cents.

 

[t.c.cgi]

So what you basically say is that it is the male ego that is hindering the electric car?

*sigh* Yes, you have us Americans all figured out, there.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

So what you basically say is that it is the male ego that is hindering the electric car?

This is not the part of the internet that thinks this crap is clever.

Now, situation might be a bit different in the USA compared to Europe as you seem to indeed have to handle slightly larger distances, but in reality for at least 95% of people the speed and distance an electric car would offer would cover all daily needs. How for is your workplace from home? Would you really not be able to reach it with an electric car? How fast are you allowed to drive there? Would you really not be able to reach that speed with an electric car? Yeah I know that fancy sports car or that hummer is hotter and feeds you ego, but if it was a pure rational decision...

The situation is more than a bit different. I'm on the 'dense' side of the country and it isn't unusual for someone to commute 400 kilometers between New York and Washington. Chris, in Seattle, is *much* further from the nearest major city... I believe he travels 1500 kilometers down the coast for business on a fairly regular basis. He thinks it's crazy that New York and Boston are so close when he comes here. When I was going to school in Texas I should need to drive 2500 km about six times a year.

What's more, trains disappear when you go west. It's a region of the country that's both too spread out for them and that was developed after that industry had fallen on hard times. Living in the middle states (I have a brother in Indiana) can require you to travel hundreds of kilometers just to find some particular type of service (like an airport.)

Travel in the United States is nothing like Europe. I can fly to Paris and get pretty much anywhere I want without a car -- you have an excellent train system and your cities are compact and 'walkable.' These things aren't wonders of intelligent planned design, though... they're a result of your geography and the time in which your countries were formed. I'd love to be able to do the same thing in the US... but the physical makeup of the country and the fact of how it developed prevents this.

The nuclear industry is actually growing at a very rapid pace. At my facility alone, Calvert Cliffs Facility - Constellation Energy, we are just beginning a new hiring cycle after completing our shutdown for the year.

Woah! Am I using your energy *right now*? I totally want your job!

(Calvert Cliffs is great - now reopen the visitors center. Trips to find sharks teeth just aren't the same without also learning how a nuclear reactor works.)

 

[Panda]

Well I happen to be a proponent of nuclear power seeing how it is my career choice.

Nuclear power is in fact the most efficient form of energy and one of the cleanest forms out there. While yes, we do create radioactive waste that waste is dumped safely or reused in other various manufactured forms. The only waste that nuclear energy creates while the reactor is running is steam, not very harmful unless you get in the way.

As for the idea that we are running out radioactive materials... that is just ludicrous. We have more than enough materials to sustain the nations nuclear reactors, yes at present we use plutonium and uranium from former soviet missiles, but that was as a deal when the Soviet Union fell and they started to sell their nukes. We took 'em so no one else would. The US has plenty of stockpiles of uranium (which is naturally occurring and the most common variety used in reactors).

As for safety transporting nuclear waste... believe me it is safe. You can bet the government knows exactly where the waste is in transport and the drums they are transported in... tough as hell. You can probably see some of the videos of the tests on youtube. They crash jets and trains at full speed into these things and not once have they ever been compromised.

The nuclear industry is actually growing at a very rapid pace. At my facility alone, Calvert Cliffs Facility - Constellation Energy, we are just beginning a new hiring cycle after completing our shutdown for the year. The US government has also approved the construction of fourteen new reactors that will be completed by 2015. So the jobs are available and waiting for those who want. What most people find surprising is that you don't need a degree in nuclear engineering to work at a reactor. Most POs (Plant Operator) and ROs (Reactor Operator) are actually fresh out of the navy with no college experience whatsoever, but with experience with reactors on the ships. Myself, I have a BA in History as does my friend who also works with me. Now granted we both worked at the reactor at Washington State University, still BA in History, not exactly math geniuses.

Well, that's my two cents.

It's great to hear from a real nuclear plant employee. I'm glad to hear that you're able to find enough new recruits.

My earlier comment that there are not enough students studying nuclear engineering is based on my experience with the department here at the University of Illinois. I am in aerospace, but I had a job in the nuclear, plasma, and radiological engineering department in my first semester as a graduate student. I noticed that there were very few American students, mostly foreigners. This is not nearly as true in the other engineering departments. I don't have a problem with foreign students learning to build and operate efficient and safe reactors, but I was sad to see so few Americans there. It made me worry about the future of the industry. But, as you said, you can always hire people from the Navy that have actual experience working on nuclear powered ships. Thank you for proving me wrong.

 

[Frosty]

So what you basically say is that it is the male ego that is hindering the electric car?

You've got to be kidding. That's all you took away from what I've said here?

Now, situation might be a bit different in the USA compared to Europe as you seem to indeed have to handle slightly larger distances, but in reality for at least 95% of people the speed and distance an electric car would offer would cover all daily needs.

The situation is different in the USA, but not at all slightly. This isn't a case of adding a few kms to the distances you travel; it's a case of adding a few zeroes.

Don't presume to tell 95% of Americans, who live practically on the other side of the world from you, what we need from our automobiles. The Tesla Roadster, thus far the world's most impressive electric passenger car, has a range just over 220 miles. For a significant portion of the population, that's to work and back. Good luck running any errands until it's charged up again, and be mindful that we're talking max range, here. Turn on the radio? Decreased range. Run the heater or air conditioner? Decreased range. Need your headlights? Decreased range. This is a type of vehicle that's not ready for the responsibility you're so eager to place upon it, and it very well may be many years before it is.

How for is your workplace from home? Would you really not be able to reach it with an electric car?

I don't currently have a job, but I have classes ~30 miles away, which is close. I certainly wouldn't have been able to reach Atlanta in any existing electric car.

Furthermore, it's not a question of merely arriving at my destination. If that's all that was important, the auto industry wouldn't be nearly so large.

How fast are you allowed to drive there? Would you really not be able to reach that speed with an electric car?

Interstate speed limits vary from 65 to unlimited depending on where you are. In certain parts of the country, a speed limit sign can be considered a suggestion, if you're careful. LOAF and I spent a reasonable amount of time at 130mph on our last trip, and my brother has made it from my home town to Orlando, FL in 11 hours. That's 1200 miles in a big American car filled with luggage and passengers, at 110mph with the climate control on. No, an electric car can't do that.

Yeah I know that fancy sports car or that hummer is hotter and feeds you ego, but if it was a pure rational decision...

You sound bitter.

An automobile purchase isn't purely rational, nor should it be. I happen to be a fan of machines and have a passion for automobiles - shocking, I know. I'm not some ascetic monk, I'm a normal American motorist.

Maybe things are different for you, but where I'm from we have the luxury of being able to make these decisions in a post-rational way. I chose my car because it's beautiful and fast and a pleasure to drive. If I merely wanted an A-to-B shitbox I'd have bought whatever it is you drive.

As far as nuclear (at least conventional one - fusion is another topic) power goes, that would be the worst option of all. Besides being the most dangerous to follow and the unsolvable problem of the nuclear waste it wouldn't even work.
If people would 'waste' nuclear power like we do for oil we would be out of fuel in less then 10 years. There is actually an incredibly small amount of radioactive material.

Your total illiteracy in this case is pretty amusing, and I'm sure LOAF and Spartan689 could set you straight about a lot of things. The only way to "waste" nuclear power is to avoid using it.

I think it's hilarious that you joined this discussion trying to play the urbane European come - with pity - to set knuckle-dragging colonists like me straight. I don't really need that Humvee, now do I? I can be taught to stop beating my chest, and learn how to make a rational choice.

It's gratifying to me to see it backfire. You have no concept of the sheer scale of the United States or what we need and want from automobiles and you have no understanding of nuclear power. All you've managed to do is expose just how deliciously provincial and judgemental you are. I love it.

 

[t.c.cgi]

I don't currently have a job, but I have classes ~30 miles away, which is close. I certainly wouldn't have been able to reach Atlanta in any existing electric car.

Yeah, my last job was 45 minutes to 1 hr one-way, ~90 miles toal of transit each day. Needed headlights and heater in the morning (left home at 6am), and then AC on the way home (try working in a concrete box with no ventillation all day and refrain from trying to chill your bones to below freezing). And I was not taking the longest commute *by far.* There were people taking up to 2 hrs transit one-way. 30min-2hr transit is the norm for a good paying job and a nice home in a nice neighborhood. Note that last bit. You can get any shit mimimum wage, part-time, "customer's bitch" job 5 minutes from your tenement in Crime Manor if that's your cup-o-tea.

And as a note, nobody drove Hummers or sports cars at that job, not even the general contractor or government officials. There were some A-to-B shitboxes pretending to be sports cars, though.

 

[NinjaLA]

I live in a state where everything is so spread out I couldn't actually get to the next town and back on a single charge. I'd be a stranded motorist. Plus electricity is still produced by horribly expensive coal and oil generators around here so it'd cost me almost as much to 'fill' it.

Not to mention safety concerns. I'd be asking to die if I took an electric car on the Alaska road system.